Abraham22

Calcium Chloride

43 posts in this topic

I totally agree with Bob K. AND after attending Big Diamond and Grandview for the 1st time this week-end, I am a firm believer that track prep still exists. Big Diamond digging up the track @ 5:00PM, watering, then digging it up again and watering. This happening that before 5:00PM, the track was dug up with water standing in the track.

Big Diamond I overheard they dig it every day and water every day.. I truly believe that statement as the track provided the best side by side, rub rail to rub rail racing I have seen anywhere since the 80's at Canandaigua. Both tracks truly impressive with no hard, dry,slick surface. AND, dust was at a minimum @ both tracks...

 

 

Totally agree. And that's why it's a shame what some of the promoters in NY are doing to create dry slick tracks. JMO.

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I agree with that, I was around for a good portion of the better years. I wont dispute that at all.

 

However to say that its not exciting now is so beyond false, its not even in the same galaxy.

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Calcium is expensive and bunny/tree huggers hate it. Back in the day it looked like it snowed at tracks during intermission.

 

KC,  Back in the day,  My Dad delivered the calcium chloride to FMP.  He became good friends with Art and Gordie.

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This has been explained to death on here.  easier on equipment and driver skill comes more into play.   on a tacky track everyone is fast and it is hard to pass.  slick tracks feature way more passing.

 

 

Actually it's more like it's been explained INCORRECTLY. 

 

Racing is about finding GRIP.  Tacky means there is a lot of grip, slick means less grip.  The key to racing on dirt is getting the most grip while keeping up your RPMs.  Again, if a track is the same from top to bottom and consistent every week. THAT is what makes great racing.  Now you guys keep going on about Dry and Slick makes great racing, well I hate to tell you what you think is "Slick" has to have some Bite (grip, tacky surface, etc.) some where. What you don't want to see is what we had a OCFS for the last 5 years which is just a DRY HARD track. That is where you get very fast but single lane racing. A Tacky track (track with moisture in it) is not a FAST track, its a RACING track. The track actually slows the cars in the corners because of the amount of bite they are getting, and slower corner speeds with grip from top to bottom, that is where you get great racing (oh and very few SLIDE JOBS).  Dry and Slick you're sliding through the corners looking for bite. And it's actually these kind of tracks where you will see the notorious SLIDE JOB more often. More passing going in to or off of the corner. With a tacky track the passes are made going through the corner, more around the outside passes, or high/low passes. You have more control through the corners so you can do more. 

Both types of tracks bring excitement. And both do it the same way by slowing down the cars through the corners. It can be over done, when a track is to soft and heavy you get waves and clumps like I said before which can tear up car quick. A dry hard track will get your fast races but lousy racing the faster the class of cars are. (Pro Stocks and Street Stocks seem to still put on great racing on these type of tracks.)  A track that is to slick with no bite, is just going to have cars dropping to the bottom and trying to feather the car through the corners, and you'll see a bunch of botched slide jobs and a lot of cars with inside damage.

 

The testimony of Dry and Slick at Canadaigua  obviously can not be over exaggerated by so many people talking about the great racing they are seeing every week. So obviously it works and is working very well. But again its about consistency. 

 

But you go to PA and to some of the great tracks with their tacky surface and you're going to get just as great a show.  

By the way I was at Penn-Can in 92 when they were using soap.. that was probably the worst surface I had ever seen on a race track. And when Chuck Akulis is struggling on a track, you know there is something wrong. There are right ways and wrong ways.  But I don't think there is a BEST way.

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I think it's more of what you have down as your surface that is going to be some of the determining factor of if your track is going to get hard and "slick"  I would think more clay and less dirt would lead to a harder more slick track? Penn Can and Five Mile seem to be more "dirt" and less Clay which I think leads to their dirt problem on the spectator side (not a fact just a guess.) I do not mind dirt flying in my face though, it is after all "dirt racing"  I'm not an expert on this at all so if i'm wrong feel free to let me hear it haha.

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Adam 3351,   I don't mind dirt in my face either but when I can't even see the cars coming out of 4 and I'm sitting in turn 4;  that's where I draw the line.  At the show at Penn Can,  I could only catch a glimpse of the cars on the backstraight..  You won't see me there again until that problem is corrected.  There were people out by the road (RT171) which is a good 1/8 to 1/4 mile from the track itself were taking pictures of there cars laughing at the amount of dirt on them.

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Adam 3351,   I don't mind dirt in my face either but when I can't even see the cars coming out of 4 and I'm sitting in turn 4;  that's where I draw the line.  At the show at Penn Can,  I could only catch a glimpse of the cars on the backstraight..  You won't see me there again until that problem is corrected.  There were people out by the road (RT171) which is a good 1/8 to 1/4 mile from the track itself were taking pictures of there cars laughing at the amount of dirt on them.

I used to go there every week for years.  It's the same every week, I don't think it will ever change. I was in turn 4 that night too that's where I always sat, and I agree you couldnt see much

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Especially on AL and Mg wheels. 

Just think of it as road salt and what it does to your car in the winter. 

I went to Accord last Fri and they watered the track after hot laps and it was still, really dusty. 

So dusty that; there were foot prints on the AL bleacher where people have walked to get to their seats. 

 

For those not aware of it calcium chloride left on your vehicle can cause pitting. If it isn't worked in well enough and spreads with the dust you need to wash your car or you can ruin your paint. I worked with the stuff for years as well as working with a limestone processing facility that manufactured it so I have seen the small pits that occur.

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Dry/slick is the norm today. No passing is the norm today. Empty stands are the norm today. Do better track prep, have better racing, attract more fans.

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Dry/slick is the norm today. No passing is the norm today. Empty stands are the norm today. Do better track prep, have better racing, attract more fans.

If it was only that easy.

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A Tacky track (track with moisture in it) is not a FAST track, its a RACING track. The track actually slows the cars in the corners because of the amount of bite they are getting
.


Are you really saying that bite slows a car down?

If that's true, shouldn't a wing slow down a car?

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No I feel a wing will make the car more stable getting through the corner. A more stable car means more rpm coming out of the corner which leads to faster times.

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I don't know what the law is on your side of the bordwer,but,if I remember correctly, Calcium Chloride IS illegal over here...Merrittville went to mixing wood chips in with the surface and it seems to work pretty good..I don't know whether or not if they still do it..I haven't walked the track in awhile..

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I think the track operators just get lazy.

 

It's going to look like I'm calling you out, but I assure you, I'm not. This statement spurred a bit of a rant, and it's not all related to this statement.

 

I see this line of thinking over and over again and much of the time, it simply isn't true. I've known track prep crews  to open up a track and dump millions of gallons on it, run it in, wait a day or two, open it up and dump millions of gallons of water on it and run it in, then do it again on race day and still end up with a dry slick track on race night. Sure, there are lazy crews that do the bare minimum of work to get the track in order, but they aren't nearly as rampant as many armchair track prep crew experts think.

 

Cars abuse the track far more than they used to. They make more power, and get way more of that power to the ground, and use so much more of the tire than ever before. And they get more powerful and handle better each and every year.  You try to keep up with that and keeping the track tacky without the help of mother nature... it ain't going to happen, at least not on a consistent basis. Not even notoriously tacky tracks like Lernerville and Knoxville have moisture consistency issues these days, and it's not for a lack of effort.

 

And I hear all the time that a track has to get the moisture "deep into the track", Well, most track actual racing surfaces are all of 6-10 inches deep. How much deeper do you expect them to get it?

 

Another thing I've noticed is that "tracks were so much tackier 20 years ago". Welp, I was going to a ton of races (East Windsor, Flemington, Bridgeport, almost every SDS race), and you know what, I saw a crapload of dry-slick races then, too. Revisionst history often comes into play in these discussions, and nobody ever wants to admit it.

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Josh you're right on point about getting moisture deep...you can get all the water you want 8" down, when the top 1" turns into rubberrock it does no good.  It's just a fact of physics, most dirt seals over and hardens down if you run enough huge, soft tires over it.  Some tracks are lucky enough to have a surface that doesn't, but most dirt just does.  

Try visiting our tracks where there is a large percentage of sand in them, or where the tide affects the track surface.  Throws so many extra curveballs into the equation!      

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By the way I was at Penn-Can in 92 when they were using soap.. that was probably the worst surface I had ever seen on a race track. And when Chuck Akulis is struggling on a track, you know there is something wrong. There are right ways and wrong ways.  But I don't think there is a BEST way.

 

I saw what was the slowest Modified race ever at Penn Can in 92. Reynolds and Nagle were having a humdinger of a battle, however, they were probably going about 45 at the end of the straightaways. Very weird night.

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When I drive slightly south into PA the 1st thing I notice is the condition of the speedway. The 2nd thing I notice is the amount of people/equipment out working on the surface. The 3rd thing I notice is that during intermission there is an army of water trucks, packer cars/trucks and graders working the surface. The 4th thing I see is phenomenal racing.

 

When I stay at my local NY tracks or travel upstate to other NY tracks the 1st thing I notice is the condition of the speedway. The 2nd thing I notice is no one out there doing anything about it. The 3rd thing I notice is that during intermission there is 1 lone jalopy being casually driven around the track by someone with his arm hanging out the window with a cigarette in his mouth. The 4th thing I see is a lack of passing and lots of empty seats. 

 

I agree that there is a science to prepping a dirt track. I wont pretend to have more than basic knowledge on the subject. But what I do know for sure is that if you give a level 2 effort you will most likely get a level 2 result and when you give a level 10 effort you will most likely get level 10 results. Some tracks are simply not trying hard enough...and it shows.

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By the way I was at Penn-Can in 92 when they were using soap.. that was probably the worst surface I had ever seen on a race track. And when Chuck Akulis is struggling on a track, you know there is something wrong. There are right ways and wrong ways.  But I don't think there is a BEST way.

 

I saw what was the slowest Modified race ever at Penn Can in 92. Reynolds and Nagle were having a humdinger of a battle, however, they were probably going about 45 at the end of the straightaways. Very weird night.

 

 

We didn't even qualify, we asked Randy Kisacky what to do, he said "Pull two spark plugs" lol.. it was bad.

 

What I don't understand about the dust at Penn Can is they use to have a big Clay vein out back of the pits if I remember right. 

Back in the 90s when Behren'ts was building the addition on the shop (which sat on a very very large amount of clay), they told Donnelly if he wanted it all he had to do was truck it from  there to the track. He declined. So they've been digging the old clay and swamp mud out of the ditches and the pond. Now you get this really weird scum on that car that hardens like concrete.

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