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These threads make your head spin. I believe it usually comes down to being mostly the racers fault. A couple guys spend a ton and everyone else follows to try to keep up. Itll never change. But I also think if you wanna go big block racing you know what you're getting in to and who you'll be racing against. If you cant win or dont want to spend 40 grand on a motor go race 358. BB isnt for beginners or the poor. 

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3 hours ago, DIRTCar97 said:

Agree 100%! 

I know teams that took 3 years to save up to build a quality big block. Now, that engine they worked so hard to get *may* be obsoleted. 

This is the same thing that is going on with the W16 in the 358 ranks.

LJL/Kevlar is making a 358 that's close in price to the W16 and winning races.

I half wonder if the cheaper alternative W16 helped push kevlar to offer a competitive affordable motor or if it was already there and just not popular yet?...🤔

Competition/options are generally a good thing for consumers. Maybe more BB options will drive prices lower?..... maybe just wishful thinking..

 

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2 minutes ago, leakin_fluids said:

LJL/Kevlar is making a 358 that's close in price to the W16 and winning races.

I half wonder if the cheaper alternative W16 helped push kevlar to offer a competitive affordable motor or if it was already there and just not popular yet?...🤔

Competition/options are generally a good thing for consumers. Maybe more BB options will drive prices lower?..... maybe just wishful thinking..

 

I have no issues with LJL Kevlar "ECO 358" engine option. I believe it still has to weigh the same as other spec 358s. I have an issue with the weight break the W16 gets, but that's off topic and was discussed thoroughly on here last year. 

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11 hours ago, macho said:

So let me see if I have this straight.........guys wont be able to afford this $27,000 engine but they will be able to keep affording $45,000 plus engines????? Sounds to me like some builders are most concerned with their own livelihood.

It took my brother 10 years to get his engine program where it is today, we have 1 good 18 degree big Block and a older 23 degree headed wngine that we have about $6500 into for a spare. So to answer your question it would be physically impossible for a lot of people to go out and spend $27,000 tomorrrow. Most guys have taken years to be where they are today, maybe buy a block this year, a crank next, a used set of heads next. As a engine builder we are going to build engines regardless, so wouldn’t it be in my best interest to want to have to build 30 aluminum spec big blocks next year? You are sadly mistaken if you think I started this because I am concerned about my livelyhood. 

Rob Hile 

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30 minutes ago, Rebob5 said:

It took my brother 10 years to get his engine program where it is today, we have 1 good 18 degree big Block and a older 23 degree headed wngine that we have about $6500 into for a spare. So to answer your question it would be physically impossible for a lot of people to go out and spend $27,000 tomorrrow. Most guys have taken years to be where they are today, maybe buy a block this year, a crank next, a used set of heads next. As a engine builder we are going to build engines regardless, so wouldn’t it be in my best interest to want to have to build 30 aluminum spec big blocks next year? You are sadly mistaken if you think I started this because I am concerned about my livelyhood. 

Rob Hile 

I get it. And I can see both sides for sure. I'm mostly on the side of if you cant afford BB racing go race something else. I also hate to see engine builders and the well funded teams prefer to keep spending outrageous amounts of money. 

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And that statement right there causes controversy. If you can't afford bb go race something else. Race bb last year and drop back to sportsman this year and people come unwound. 

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14 hours ago, brian moore said:

So basically the only option we have is to stick with the rules we have until the whole class dies. 

If there’s anything I’ve learned from reading comments on racing it’s never change and everything will be perfect. Even if it’s bad and everyone is complaining. Then if you do change to improve change back because we forgot what the issues were before 

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37 minutes ago, macho said:

I get it. And I can see both sides for sure. I'm mostly on the side of if you cant afford BB racing go race something else. I also hate to see engine builders and the well funded teams prefer to keep spending outrageous amounts of money. 

I think that is a loaded statement because there are lots of guys who can afford to big block race but can’t afford to just go out and spend $27,000 tomorrow. All this talk about people moving up to big block and we must have forgotten about the 358 class. The 358 series has a very user friendly schedule, you can run 358’s weekly at Utica Rome and at Fulton and hell you could bring it to Brewerton in Friday night and be competitive. With that being said you don’t see the masses moving to the 358 class which is even more affordable than the big block class. We sold a couple stout used 358’s complete minus carb for $12,000... that’s not much more than what people are spending on complete crate packages. No matter what you do people are going to spend money, unless you have a spec car, with spec shocks and a spec engine people are going to spend more than others. I don’t think having a $27,000 spec big Block is going to bring 40 new faces to the class next year but it might make 20 familiar faces not be in the class 

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If nothing changes all of the smaller teams will continue to fold up, most of them race for the love of it, most got into big block racing when a really competitive engine was 25k.....those engines are not competitive and since the engine bill has skyrocketed more teams have moved on than have moved up. It seemed that 15-25k was the price point where guys were willing to make the move, 40-60 k keeps guys away. The idea that big blocks are not for the poor is the exact opinion that will create 10 car fields for the class. The sportsman went through this exact same thing on a much cheaper scale, when the switch was made from opens to crates. The motors were costing too much to justify racing in that class, the crate saved it. When that conversion took place, some guys were hurt by it, I personally know a bunch of teams that got out or moved up at that time. The big blocks are at that point. 

As far as the 358 class....at this point there are far more shows for sportsman to go make good money than 358 here in cny. Not to mention they are basically an open sportsman car, so big block guys generally don’t want to race them. The w-16 is a tough package, it’s dominant at some places, useless at others, and a lot of guys have had issues with them. So it hasn’t been a huge benefit to anyone besides the big teams that have both and use each where it’s an advantage.

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9 hours ago, DIRTCar97 said:

Agree 100%! 

I know teams that took 3 years to save up to build a quality big block. Now, that engine they worked so hard to get *may* be obsoleted. 

This is the same thing that is going on with the W16 in the 358 ranks.

I don't mean this so sound jerky, but it probably will....

If a team is saving their pennies for 3 years to afford a single engine they can't afford to race that class to begin with.    

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16 minutes ago, luke81 said:

I don't mean this so sound jerky, but it probably will....

If a team is saving their pennies for 3 years to afford a single engine they can't afford to race that class to begin with.    

You were right, it did. Do you apply that logic to every day life as well, i.e. purchasing a car or a house? Why save up for something you really want, right? 

Let me give you some context: it took 3 years while still weekly racing 358s competitively.

Did you read Rob Hile's post? Took his brother 10 years. I can't imagine what you think of that...

Also, the cost of running a big block vs a small block is virtually the same once the motor has been purchased. But why would anyone be disciplined and save up money for a big block anyway, right? 

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1 hour ago, luke81 said:

I don't mean this so sound jerky, but it probably will....

If a team is saving their pennies for 3 years to afford a single engine they can't afford to race that class to begin with.    

You do sound jerky, it’s not like people are siting at home putting all their pennies in a 5 gallon jug saving up for that fancy crank that they want to buy.  When I say it has taken my brother 10 years to get where he is it’s like this, started out with a used 23 degree headed engine we bought from Tom Sears for 8500, ran that thing for years and won a race with it and then like every raised port weld tech head does the intake rocker stand ripped out of the head and it was beyond repair and literally tossed the heads in the garbage. Now you are left with a shortblock, we purchased a set of heads that were in the shelf at gypsum and repaired our engine. In the meantime we were ready to update our engine program and bought a used CC headed 18 degree engine, ran that for years and won 3 races with that one, we sold that engine and applied that towards the new engine we built. Was a set of Mikes 18 degree heads that had been hurt so they were repaired and we built our current engine off of that. So while I say it took my brother 10 years to get where he is it’s not 10 years of saving up every penny we have. The amount of money we spend a year is insane for a family owned team but we have great sponsors that help and there is nothing else I would rather be doing in a Friday night than racing with my family and my racing family. So when you say if you have to save for 3 years you shouldn’t be racing big block you couldn’t be any more wrong. 

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Now back to the open vs crate, we ran open engines and had our complete operation obsoleted when they went crate racing... my open sportsman is in my street car because a engine we had about $12,000 into with really good long lasting parts wasn’t worth $2,500. Back in the open days we had some power to work with, now with the crate being a limited horsepower application power and rotating weight is everything. No one is complaining about the amount of money crate sportsman guys are spending on lightweight 8” ring gear rear ends with coated bearing everywhere in the car... coated wheel bearings ect. The crate guys are spending more on a rolling chassis than a big block guy is. You order a solid spool with solid axles in a big block, pretty standard heavy duty stuff. People are going to spend astronomical amounts of money, Racing is a highly addictive addiction and just like any addiction people will do whatever it takes to get their fix. All the aluminum big block is going to do is make you have 2 options, you are going to need a steel block “open” engine certain places and other places the aluminum engine is going to shine and if you don’t have 1 or the other and the engine is dominant you might as well leave your car in the trailer because you don’t have a chance. 

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If anyone is trying to “help” racers forget it. They honestly don’t want to be helped. Economics, along with many other factors will filter them into the correct division. They will move up and down depending on cost, competition, etc. I don’t think that will change anytime soon. I’m guilty of coming on here and suggesting that solution X might save money but in all honesty I’m shouting at myself. Racers will spend and spend more until they can’t spend anymore and it’s not my money so who really cares anyway. At this point of my life I’m a fan only so just appreciate good fields and good racing. I’ll leave the technical stuff and finances associated with it to those who are forking our the money. 

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1 hour ago, Rebob5 said:

Now back to the open vs crate, we ran open engines and had our complete operation obsoleted when they went crate racing... my open sportsman is in my street car because a engine we had about $12,000 into with really good long lasting parts wasn’t worth $2,500. Back in the open days we had some power to work with, now with the crate being a limited horsepower application power and rotating weight is everything. No one is complaining about the amount of money crate sportsman guys are spending on lightweight 8” ring gear rear ends with coated bearing everywhere in the car... coated wheel bearings ect. The crate guys are spending more on a rolling chassis than a big block guy is. You order a solid spool with solid axles in a big block, pretty standard heavy duty stuff. People are going to spend astronomical amounts of money, Racing is a highly addictive addiction and just like any addiction people will do whatever it takes to get their fix. All the aluminum big block is going to do is make you have 2 options, you are going to need a steel block “open” engine certain places and other places the aluminum engine is going to shine and if you don’t have 1 or the other and the engine is dominant you might as well leave your car in the trailer because you don’t have a chance. 

In fairness 75% of the guys signed up for the BB SDS don’t have better than a 10% chance of winning a race this season. 25% don’t have a better than a 10% chance of finishing top 5. But they are signed up and ready to roll. 

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3 minutes ago, JohnyC said:

In fairness 75% of the guys signed up for the BB SDS don’t have better than a 10% chance of winning a race this season. 25% don’t have a better than a 10% chance of finishing top 5. But they are signed up and ready to roll. 

Does that mean that they shouldn't at least try to follow the series?

Seems pessimistic. 

I love how people were whining not that long ago that no one was following the SDS tour. Now they have more committed followers than I can recall in recent memory and people are still whining... smh. 

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As more tracks drop the big blocks, more guys will sign up for the sds....a bunch of those guys are not competitive but have a big block and want to race it. Most will not make each race but they will hit most I would think. 

I completely agree with the statement the aluminum motor is gunna be an advantage at some places and a disadvantage at others, but once again, it’s a possible attempt to drop costs so that people will buy a big block and hope to be competitive. As we speak if a guy spent the 27k (that the new option supposedly will be) on a new steel current block big block, he would be at a disadvantage everywhere. You cannot build a good new big block for anywhere near that. It’s an idea, and one of the first in an attempt to solve an ongoing issue that has gained much traction.

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1 hour ago, DIRTCar97 said:

Does that mean that they shouldn't at least try to follow the series?

Seems pessimistic. 

I love how people were whining not that long ago that no one was following the SDS tour. Now they have more committed followers than I can recall in recent memory and people are still whining... smh. 

Not whining whatsoever. I’m being realistic and my post was in reponse to the comment about leaving the car in the trailer (re if you didn’t have both engines you wouldn’t have a chance). I love that there are going to be full fields of big block modifieds at most if not all series races. But I’m not pretending that there is reason to believe that many of these guys have a shot of running up front with the Shepard’s and Friesen’s of the world 

As I’ve said many times on here it’s not my money. Guys work hard and can spend their money as they deem fit and if following the tour is how they wish to do it than I say great. I’m a fan so it’s better for me too 

No clue how my post reads as whining 

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8 hours ago, JohnyC said:

No clue how my post reads as whining 

It was more of a general statement which was triggered by your post, nothing personal.

You could substitute "whining" with "complaining" - which is maybe what I should I said in the first place - but the story is still the same either way. 

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Rebob,  I know you're involved on the engine building side and racer side. But are you saying nothing should ever be done and just keep letting the cost of motors skyrocket? Almost any change is going to obsolete something. Do you have any ideas or just let it go as is?

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47 minutes ago, macho said:

Rebob,  I know you're involved on the engine building side and racer side. But are you saying nothing should ever be done and just keep letting the cost of motors skyrocket? Almost any change is going to obsolete something. Do you have any ideas or just let it go as is?

I don't think the concern is that there is a cheaper engine option. The concern is that there is an engine option that will have an advantage of being lighter (estimated 100#) and be cheaper, therefore the 'have' teams will have a car with both engines and the 'have nots' will be just as far, if not further, behind.

The ideal thing to do, would be to force the teams with this new engine to bolt on the extra 100# in the engine bay to try to equalize the advantage. However, for anyone who has seen a big block mounted inside of one of these, there isn't much room to be bolting on additional weight in the engine bay. 

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1 hour ago, DIRTCar97 said:

I don't think the concern is that there is a cheaper engine option. The concern is that there is an engine option that will have an advantage of being lighter (estimated 100#) and be cheaper, therefore the 'have' teams will have a car with both engines and the 'have nots' will be just as far, if not further, behind.

The ideal thing to do, would be to force the teams with this new engine to bolt on the extra 100# in the engine bay to try to equalize the advantage. However, for anyone who has seen a big block mounted inside of one of these, there isn't much room to be bolting on additional weight in the engine bay. 

Right but I'm just asking if anyone has if anyone possible suggestions other than reasons why nothing can be done? 

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1 hour ago, DIRTCar97 said:

 

The ideal thing to do, would be to force the teams with this new engine to bolt on the extra 100# in the engine bay to try to equalize the advantage. However, for anyone who has seen a big block mounted inside of one of these, there isn't much room to be bolting on additional weight in the engine bay. 

Add a "quart" or so of lead to the oil pan........ and put in on the left side while you are at it.

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2 hours ago, DIRTCar97 said:

I don't think the concern is that there is a cheaper engine option. The concern is that there is an engine option that will have an advantage of being lighter (estimated 100#) and be cheaper, therefore the 'have' teams will have a car with both engines and the 'have nots' will be just as far, if not further, behind.

The ideal thing to do, would be to force the teams with this new engine to bolt on the extra 100# in the engine bay to try to equalize the advantage. However, for anyone who has seen a big block mounted inside of one of these, there isn't much room to be bolting on additional weight in the engine bay. 

Exactly. You see it in small block. Bring a W16 in onecar and a 358 in another

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1 hour ago, macho said:

Right but I'm just asking if anyone has if anyone possible suggestions other than reasons why nothing can be done? 

Macho, I’m not really sure what the right thing to do. On my Facebook post I said “if anything I have never seen a post with so many people having a opinion on a topic, I’ve had tons of drivers crew ect state what they think of this, I don’t ever remember seeing something like this takes about before. Usually it’s just the rules are changed, here is what you have to have... there is never any talk from the people making the decisions to the people it will effect. I think what needs to happen is everyone needs to get together and talk it out. Engine builders, dirtcar, chassis manufacturers.....

Rob Hile 

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