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1 hour ago, macho said:

Right but I'm just asking if anyone has if anyone possible suggestions other than reasons why nothing can be done? 

Come up with a spec 23 degree cylinder head. Steel block but no Cnc lightening...give these engines a weight break being they will be down some on power and heavier than an 18degree motor. The engine doesn’t have to be a kit, besides a spec cylinder head, which can be bought for a 1/3rd of the money as an 18degree set. 

Some simple rules that could help in costs, spec out a 750 carb that everyone has to run, much like the 358s....there is no big block that can’t run on a 750 Holley carb that you can buy for $750.00 rather than $2000.00 from bill pink. Ban belt driven fuel pumps, there are no big blocks that can’t run on a 15lb mechanical pump that’s 150.00 rather than a couple thousand for a belt driven set up. Put an RPM rule in effect, most teams can’t afford to twist a big block 8400 all night and rebuild it every 600-800 laps....so 7400 would equalize that in a hurry.

Sure rules will be broken, only good tech can stop that and the free cheeseburger and fries the tech inspectors are paid, probably won’t entice much effort on their part. But these rules would help everyone, including the rich guys. 

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8 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

Come up with a spec 23 degree cylinder head. Steel block but no Cnc lightening...give these engines a weight break being they will be down some on power and heavier than an 18degree motor. The engine doesn’t have to be a kit, besides a spec cylinder head, which can be bought for a 1/3rd of the money as an 18degree set. 

Some simple rules that could help in costs, spec out a 750 carb that everyone has to run, much like the 358s....there is no big block that can’t run on a 750 Holley carb that you can buy for $750.00 rather than $2000.00 from bill pink. Ban belt driven fuel pumps, there are no big blocks that can’t run on a 15lb mechanical pump that’s 150.00 rather than a couple thousand for a belt driven set up. Put an RPM rule in effect, most teams can’t afford to twist a big block 8400 all night and rebuild it every 600-800 laps....so 7400 would equalize that in a hurry.

Sure rules will be broken, only good tech can stop that and the free cheeseburger and fries the tech inspectors are paid, probably won’t entice much effort on their part. But these rules would help everyone, including the rich guys. 

Again people will either say if 'your' engine is better that's no good for current engines and if it's cheaper but not as competitive then who wants that? At some point something has to give.

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39 minutes ago, macho said:

Again people will either say if 'your' engine is better that's no good for current engines and if it's cheaper but not as competitive then who wants that? At some point something has to give.

The rules regarding a weight break for the cheaper engine option would have to make it a slight advantage over the current engines, otherwise nobody makes the switch. By not going to an aluminum engine or a kit engine, the guys that have big blocks can use most of their parts. They would eat the big money cylinder heads, and the big money lightened blocks. They would eat the huge money carbs and fuel pump systems. But there is a resale market on all of those items outside of modified racing. The cheaper option has to phase out the current option. It’s the way it has to happen, nobody wants to invest in even a 25-30 k big block of it’s not capable of winning.

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Is the horse dead yet? If not keep beating it.

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32 minutes ago, RJO said:

Is the horse dead yet? If not keep beating it.

I joined this forum 9plus years ago.  For AT THE VERY LEAST  this long...…….  big blocks are dead😆

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3 hours ago, rpm72x said:

Come up with a spec 23 degree cylinder head. Steel block but no Cnc lightening...give these engines a weight break being they will be down some on power and heavier than an 18degree motor. The engine doesn’t have to be a kit, besides a spec cylinder head, which can be bought for a 1/3rd of the money as an 18degree set. 

Some simple rules that could help in costs, spec out a 750 carb that everyone has to run, much like the 358s....there is no big block that can’t run on a 750 Holley carb that you can buy for $750.00 rather than $2000.00 from bill pink. Ban belt driven fuel pumps, there are no big blocks that can’t run on a 15lb mechanical pump that’s 150.00 rather than a couple thousand for a belt driven set up. Put an RPM rule in effect, most teams can’t afford to twist a big block 8400 all night and rebuild it every 600-800 laps....so 7400 would equalize that in a hurry.

Sure rules will be broken, only good tech can stop that and the free cheeseburger and fries the tech inspectors are paid, probably won’t entice much effort on their part. But these rules would help everyone, including the rich guys. 

We turn our big blocks 7600 max (8000 chip) and have run them as long as 2000 laps before a rebuild, normally we get them back at 1500 laps. Block mount fuel pumps are junk these days, you can spend $250 4 times on block mount pumps or $1000 on a belt driven one and run it longer than you will race for. It’s so easy for someone on the outside to have all these suggestions but until you see what it takes to make these things live at 7600 rpm and make the power we do you really don’t have a clue. 

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25 minutes ago, Rebob5 said:

We turn our big blocks 7600 max (8000 chip) and have run them as long as 2000 laps before a rebuild, normally we get them back at 1500 laps. Block mount fuel pumps are junk these days, you can spend $250 4 times on block mount pumps or $1000 on a belt driven one and run it longer than you will race for. It’s so easy for someone on the outside to have all these suggestions but until you see what it takes to make these things live at 7600 rpm and make the power we do you really don’t have a clue. 

Once again, if you look there is justification to every added cost. The fuel pump debate....just had it with Steve Paine a month ago, he has run a Holley mechanical pump for years, I think he has won some races....as far as 7600, I don’t doubt you guys run yours at that, Larry, billy, max, jimmy....I doubt it. You not only have a lack of guys moving into the division, but you have guys that have been in it for years, like Alan Johnson,Gary Tomkins, Steve Paine...etc all saying something has to change. Nobodies word on here should trump 3 all time greats all basically saying the same thing. Last year ken tremont has Brett hearn in a car testing a new engine combo....why....because there needs to be cheaper competitive options. Rob I 100% respect your opinion, and your knowledge. I think your engine shop puts out some of the very best engines both for quality and durability, but I do not agree that the inflating cost of big block racing is necessary. The racing is worse today than it was 25 years ago when the big blocks were 680-725 hp and half built of off the shelf products. It’s a shame no rules were ever implemented to reign in costs before so many guys spent a fortune trying to keep up, but now the class is in trouble so something has to be done. I personally think big block racing is the best in the country, and I’ve watched every form of car up and down the east coast. I don’t want to see it replaced by crates and a little bit bigger crates. But if no one enters the class the same guys that have held it together for 40 years will not be here to do it forever. 

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Would limiting the amount of body work on these cars, particularly the inner wing and the doors that extend to the front wheels, serve to equalize engines and limit costs, at least a little?

Limiting downforce - and how much power can be put to the ground - could make lower buck engines more competitive. (Plus, IMO the modifieds look better with less bodywork).

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26 minutes ago, OpenHeaders said:

Would limiting the amount of body work on these cars, particularly the inner wing and the doors that extend to the front wheels, serve to equalize engines and limit costs, at least a little?

Limiting downforce - and how much power can be put to the ground - could make lower buck engines more competitive. (Plus, IMO the modifieds look better with less bodywork).

Well most of the problem comes because so many people involved are all making a living from racing. The builders sure dont want less body panels, in fact they seem to keep adding panels. And they dont want restrictions on chassis parts. As you can see here the engine builders sure dont want a cheaper option. And WRG has their hand in it too by mandating certain parts, tires, shocks and whatever. And you even have the professional drivers who sure dont want to change anything cause they have people buying them the best parts already. So is it any wonder no one ever gets anywhere on rules?

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1 hour ago, rpm72x said:

Once again, if you look there is justification to every added cost. The fuel pump debate....just had it with Steve Paine a month ago, he has run a Holley mechanical pump for years, I think he has won some races....as far as 7600, I don’t doubt you guys run yours at that, Larry, billy, max, jimmy....I doubt it. You not only have a lack of guys moving into the division, but you have guys that have been in it for years, like Alan Johnson,Gary Tomkins, Steve Paine...etc all saying something has to change. Nobodies word on here should trump 3 all time greats all basically saying the same thing. Last year ken tremont has Brett hearn in a car testing a new engine combo....why....because there needs to be cheaper competitive options. Rob I 100% respect your opinion, and your knowledge. I think your engine shop puts out some of the very best engines both for quality and durability, but I do not agree that the inflating cost of big block racing is necessary. The racing is worse today than it was 25 years ago when the big blocks were 680-725 hp and half built of off the shelf products. It’s a shame no rules were ever implemented to reign in costs before so many guys spent a fortune trying to keep up, but now the class is in trouble so something has to be done. I personally think big block racing is the best in the country, and I’ve watched every form of car up and down the east coast. I don’t want to see it replaced by crates and a little bit bigger crates. But if no one enters the class the same guys that have held it together for 40 years will not be here to do it forever. 

The White team has money to burn. Probably better funded than some truck teams. What incentive do they have to wind back costs? And that’s not just LJL racing that goes for Halmar, HBR, etc. People know what the costs are when they get into this game. Maybe the others are right and the division will be around for as long as there is racing. Here’s to hoping that’s the case as I’d love to bring my kids to watch when they are old enough. 

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5 hours ago, rpm72x said:

Ban belt driven fuel pumps, there are no big blocks that can’t run on a 15lb mechanical pump that’s 150.00 rather than a couple thousand for a belt driven set up. Put an RPM rule in effect, most teams can’t afford to twist a big block 8400 all night and rebuild it every 600-800 laps....so 7400 would equalize that in a hurry.

A mechanical fuel pump was the savoury for us, block mount fuel pumps were brutal, after 3 block fuel pumps we bought a mechanical and havent looked back. Money well spent. 

Please tell me what track you attend in CNY or in Canada where you can run an 800hp+ engine at 8400rpm all night long? The odd time when it rains all day but they race that night is the only time you get the perfect conditions to do that. 

Having all kinds of power on slick tracks is what makes big block drivers so talented. 

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I don’t know what a good answer is but from growing up at the race track it seems teams will make a change to conform to what is needed.  I grew up in an area that was all small block from way back (70’s maybe earlier)to the early 2000’s.  This was before pre spec head small blocks.  The cost was getting rediculous and the talk was go big block because, although the initial cost was more, they broke less and could go a whole season maybe even two before rebuild if only running one night a week. So tracks  went big block for a while and everyone got a BB  even teams I didn’t think could do it.  Yes a couple teams got out but a few racers got back in because the small block was too much money for the durability.  I guess my point is, no matter the change (even though complaints will happen), it seems teams find a way.  I’m not saying it is good or bad because I don’t spend the money.  I just know from being around racing for 40 years that the racers find ways to make changes.  Yes, some will get out (unfortunate) but some will move up,  get back into racing or be more competitive.  I just want modified racing to survive whether big or small block.  I’ve enjoyed both equally!  Hoepefully solutions will be made for all to survive!  I do think allowing big blocks to cost 45-60 grand is crazy considering most of the payout is the same or less.   

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This reminds me of 20-30-40 years discussions about NASCAR and controlling costs to protect the smaller independent teams. You know, back when they used to get 60-70 cars trying to qualify for the Daytona 500. But the big teams didn't want to change things because they were doing okay and all NASCAR was concerned about was getting more big dollar sponsors.

And now we have a handful of corporately sponsored Charter teams with such fragile egos that they demanded guaranteed starting spots for every race (which is ironic, because they can't even get a full field of cars anymore), almost all of the independents have been priced out, and half-empty grandstands (because the racing generally sucks and the fans don't have a connection with most of the drivers).

Same thing happened with CART when it got so expensive that being able to buy a ride was all that mattered, not driver ability. So we had 3/4 of the field being European and South American road course specialists with names you couldn't pronounce and the best American drivers were on the outside looking in ... no wonder the fans left.

The story is not exactly the same but it sure does rhyme for NASCAR Tour-type Modifieds.

Maybe it's just time to start a "local weekly track working man's Modified" class as a headliner ... no, I'm not serious, but if nothing changes, we're looking at Sportsman as headliners in the not too distant future at a lot of places with our current form of Mods as a touring class. It worked for Stafford and Thompson when they created the SKs because they had lost control of the "real" Modifieds to the maniacs in Daytona who ruined everything they touched.

I don't know what the answer is but it's not hard to tell that there is a serious problem in Modified racing.

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On 3/26/2019 at 10:07 PM, Rebob5 said:

I know, 20+ cars already signed up to run the series 70 big blocks at Oswego and awesome racing, 40 big blocks in Charlotte, 40 big blocks in Florida. So we don’t get 37 cars weekly at big block tracks, I’d take 17 good quality cars over 5 great ones and 12 field fillers any day. I just don’t see big Block Racing in a bad of a position that people are saying it’s in. 

Rob Hile 

I agree with Rob, I fail to see a problem here. Modified racing is supposed to be professional drivers driving killer pieces. Save the cost-cutting ideas for the crate sportsman, that's where the costs are completely off the hook.

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22 minutes ago, oilman said:

I agree with Rob, I fail to see a problem here. Modified racing is supposed to be professional drivers driving killer pieces. Save the cost-cutting ideas for the crate sportsman, that's where the costs are completely off the 

Got any good ideas for saving money In sportsman? 

 

Ideally a "spec" big block would be something the top teams have no use for. Make it a cheaper option for the guy running mid pack that already has a less competitive engine.

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1 hour ago, oilman said:

I agree with Rob, I fail to see a problem here. Modified racing is supposed to be professional drivers driving killer pieces. Save the cost-cutting ideas for the crate sportsman, that's where the costs are completely off the hook.

"It takes a big dog to piss in the tall weeds."  -  Gordon Gekko,  "Wall Street" 

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6 hours ago, Devin Willis said:

Got any good ideas for saving money In sportsman? 

 

Ideally a "spec" big block would be something the top teams have no use for. Make it a cheaper option for the guy running mid pack that already has a less competitive engine.

To make the mid pack guy be somewhat competitive with a spec engine it will have to have some sort of a advantage for them to want to run it, at that time the big teams will have the spec engine also. They will show up to the track with both and choose the best option 

Rob Hile 

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On 3/27/2019 at 5:43 PM, DIRTCar97 said:

You were right, it did. Do you apply that logic to every day life as well, i.e. purchasing a car or a house? Why save up for something you really want, right? 

Let me give you some context: it took 3 years while still weekly racing 358s competitively.

Did you read Rob Hile's post? Took his brother 10 years. I can't imagine what you think of that...

Also, the cost of running a big block vs a small block is virtually the same once the motor has been purchased. But why would anyone be disciplined and save up money for a big block anyway, right? 

No, I don't compare any real-life purchases to race car purchases.  A house is an asset with value.  A car is used to get back and forth to work to afford that asset.  A race car engine can turn into a flaming puddle of trash at any moment.  I've turned a few into puddles of trash myself, lol.  

If you're doing it while still racing competitively in another class, then it makes a lot more sense.    

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20 minutes ago, luke81 said:

No, I don't compare any real-life purchases to race car purchases.  A house is an asset with value.  A car is used to get back and forth to work to afford that asset.  A race car engine can turn into a flaming puddle of trash at any moment.  I've turned a few into puddles of trash myself, lol.  

If you're doing it while still racing competitively in another class, then it makes a lot more sense.    

To be fair so could your daily driver or your house

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29 minutes ago, fiend540 said:

To be fair so could your daily driver or your house

Far fetched counter point but you also have insurance on those items.

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5 hours ago, macho said:

Far fetched counter point but you also have insurance on those items.

You're supposed to, but theres tons of people under insured, or just without insurance all together ask me how I know! I just got my deductible back 1.5 years after some under insured kid hit my truck 🙄

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On 3/29/2019 at 10:51 PM, Rebob5 said:

To make the mid pack guy be somewhat competitive with a spec engine it will have to have some sort of a advantage for them to want to run it, at that time the big teams will have the spec engine also. They will show up to the track with both and choose the best option 

Rob Hile 

I feel like this could be a situation where a team just needs to accept that they're a midpack team, and if they can still run midpack and save some money doing it that could be an advantage - not necessarily a performance advantage.  In that situation the engine package that saves them money might not be desirable to the top guys, but it works for the midpack guys to save some money.  

      

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23 hours ago, luke81 said:

I feel like this could be a situation where a team just needs to accept that they're a midpack team, and if they can still run midpack and save some money doing it that could be an advantage - not necessarily a performance advantage.  In that situation the engine package that saves them money might not be desirable to the top guys, but it works for the midpack guys to save some money.  

      

It doesn't save anyone any money when they have to spend more money on a different engine package that they don't need.

 

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On 3/29/2019 at 10:51 PM, Rebob5 said:

To make the mid pack guy be somewhat competitive with a spec engine it will have to have some sort of a advantage for them to want to run it, at that time the big teams will have the spec engine also. They will show up to the track with both and choose the best option 

Rob Hile 

Some mid packers will always be mid packers no matter what, even if they swapped cars with the people they accuse of cheating or having ridiculous money behind them. And they'll get on the internet after having their asses handed to them claiming a fix because that's all they know.

I used to hunt deer. Everyone around me got deer every year. I only killed a couple in the 30 years I hunted. For the time and money I had invested, it took me 20 years to finally admit that I suck at it, even though I suspected it after 5 years. I kept hunting anyway because I liked being with my friends. I finally quit when I decided that the vacation time I was spending would be better spent in better weather going to Florida or Charlotte instead.

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On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 10:07 AM, fiend540 said:

To be fair so could your daily driver or your house

Have you tried getting insurance on a 875 HP big block lately?

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