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6 hours ago, BobMiller said:

Some mid packers will always be mid packers no matter what, even if they swapped cars with the people they accuse of cheating or having ridiculous money behind them. And they'll get on the internet after having their asses handed to them claiming a fix because that's all they know.

I used to hunt deer. Everyone around me got deer every year. I only killed a couple in the 30 years I hunted. For the time and money I had invested, it took me 20 years to finally admit that I suck at it, even though I suspected it after 5 years. I kept hunting anyway because I liked being with my friends. I finally quit when I decided that the vacation time I was spending would be better spent in better weather going to Florida or Charlotte instead.

Don't be so hard on yourself Bob. Perhaps everyone around you had better hunting equipment or they were cheating.

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2 hours ago, John Williams said:

Don't be so hard on yourself Bob.

(Doing my best Beavis and Butthead impression)

"Heh, Heheh heh... you said hard on."

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9 hours ago, BobMiller said:

Some mid packers will always be mid packers no matter what, even if they swapped cars with the people they accuse of cheating or having ridiculous money behind them. And they'll get on the internet after having their asses handed to them claiming a fix because that's all they know.

I used to hunt deer. Everyone around me got deer every year. I only killed a couple in the 30 years I hunted. For the time and money I had invested, it took me 20 years to finally admit that I suck at it, even though I suspected it after 5 years. I kept hunting anyway because I liked being with my friends. I finally quit when I decided that the vacation time I was spending would be better spent in better weather going to Florida or Charlotte instead.

While I agree 100% on what the limit is on some drivers, no matter what type of funding they have behind them.....Alan Johnson and Gary Tomkins are 2 of the all time greats, on the internet claiming there needs to be a fix , that have been relegated to mid pack guys because of the lack of funding behind them. Some guys would never do any better with unlimited support, some guys have exceeded their talent levels because of that funding. With the costs of moving up to big block being what they are, less and less drivers will ever get the chance to find out where they fall when it comes to ability.

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8 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

While I agree 100% on what the limit is on some drivers, no matter what type of funding they have behind them.....Alan Johnson and Gary Tomkins are 2 of the all time greats, on the internet claiming there needs to be a fix , that have been relegated to mid pack guys because of the lack of funding behind them. Some guys would never do any better with unlimited support, some guys have exceeded their talent levels because of that funding. With the costs of moving up to big block being what they are, less and less drivers will ever get the chance to find out where they fall when it comes to ability.

In other words it's like real life. Some people are born into money. Others have to work their ass off to survive. Some win the lottery, others have their house burn down. It's all part of life and BB racing is no different. 

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2 minutes ago, macho said:

In other words it's like real life. Some people are born into money. Others have to work their ass off to survive. Some win the lottery, others have their house burn down. It's all part of life and BB racing is no different. 

Your right, in life things die out as well. Usually not as fast as expected, but things die out none the less. The ideas about reducing cost are being presented so that big blocks don’t go away. I can’t understand the push back on ideas. I don’t think this aluminum motor is the answer, but I’m happy that the people in charge are recognizing a problem. 

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On 4/2/2019 at 6:02 PM, ranger22 said:

It doesn't save anyone any money when they have to spend more money on a different engine package that they don't need.

 

The only way rules like this work is with a long enough grace period to use up your existing stuff.  If this new engine was an available option one it came time to replace an engine, that could save money.  But yeah i agree, if you were to force people's hand to get it that's how rules cost people money. 

 

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20 hours ago, rpm72x said:

Alan Johnson and Gary Tomkins are 2 of the all time greats, on the internet claiming there needs to be a fix , that have been relegated to mid pack guys because of the lack of funding behind them.

Having been an Alan Johnson fan my entire racing life, I keep track of him on facebook. While he does have thoughts and ideas about expenses that he shares on his page, he is also the driver of a 2 car team, soon to be 3 cars (his car owner just announced the purchase of the 3rd  brand new car). I'm not sure where you get this "relegated to mid pack" idea from when he won features and another track championship last year.

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1 hour ago, BobMiller said:

Having been an Alan Johnson fan my entire racing life, I keep track of him on facebook. While he does have thoughts and ideas about expenses that he shares on his page, he is also the driver of a 2 car team, soon to be 3 cars (his car owner just announced the purchase of the 3rd  brand new car). I'm not sure where you get this "relegated to mid pack" idea from when he won features and another track championship last year.

If he told the facts it wouldnt fit his narrative. 

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To say Alan's team is one of the better funded teams out there is a bit of an exaggeration. Is it better funded than some? Yes. What makes that team as strong as it is, is that the communication and dedication with team members is great. And it also doesn't hurt one bit that Alan drives the car.

All I am saying here is that when you have an 18 to 22 car average field, mid pack is 9th to 11th. You don't win features or a track championship with that kind of consistency. You have to be a solid top 5 car for that. I think that is priority number one with any team.

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Alan is an unbelievable driver, still today. While he still wins, I don’t believe his ability has dropped off as much as his stats show, especially in big events, where for years he was the guy to beat.  I’m not sure the situation at black rock, or how Matt lost a title when he seemed to win every week. I’m happy Alan is still racing at a fairly high level, but I’m guessing if he felt he could be competitive on the sds, he would do it, along with chasing all the big money shows. I have no idea what he posts on his Facebook page, but the back and forth between him and Kevlar on rob hiles, was pretty good. He straight out says big blocks will be gone with the current situation, that it is too late for himself to see a fix, but that the problem is out of hand. His words, not mine. 

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38 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

 I have no idea what he posts on his Facebook page, but the back and forth between him and Kevlar on rob hiles, was pretty good. 

 

Well that was a read and a half, lol.  All I took from that is that Jake Spraker doesn't know anything about engines :p :p :p 

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2 hours ago, luke81 said:

 

Well that was a read and a half, lol.  All I took from that is that Jake Spraker doesn't know anything about engines :p :p :p 

Yes it was quite the discussion, but I wasn’t putting words in Alan’s or Gary’s mouth....just reading what was written. I do not expect anyone to put much value on what I write on a forum....as I don’t put much on anyone else’s posts. But those 2 guys may know a little bit about the topic. Alan was winning modified races long before anyone knew who Kevlar was, and he has also been a part of both sides of the financial spectrum as it pertains to racing. So I value his words far more than anything I’ve read on Facebook or on here regarding big block racing. 

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The problem isn't introducing a new engine, the problem is introducing an engine that will be an advantage. The teams with money can absorb that cost, the teams that can't are left with a $60,000 boat anchor. 

If they do introduce an engine that has a weight advantage, they need to do something about adding weight in the engine compartment to compensate, but there's not a lot of room there to be bolting on weight.

For those asking why the weight location is a big deal? The Achilles heel of a big block modified is that big heavy engine in the front of it. If you can put in a lighter, similarly powered engine, you can then move that saved weight around the car to increase handling... thus, the advantage.

 

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55 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

Yes it was quite the discussion, but I wasn’t putting words in Alan’s or Gary’s mouth....just reading what was written. I do not expect anyone to put much value on what I write on a forum....as I don’t put much on anyone else’s posts. But those 2 guys may know a little bit about the topic. Alan was winning modified races long before anyone knew who Kevlar was, and he has also been a part of both sides of the financial spectrum as it pertains to racing. So I value his words far more than anything I’ve read on Facebook or on here regarding big block racing. 

I happen to think your posts do have value...

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4 hours ago, DIRTCar97 said:

The problem isn't introducing a new engine, the problem is introducing an engine that will be an advantage. The teams with money can absorb that cost, the teams that can't are left with a $60,000 boat anchor. 

If they do introduce an engine that has a weight advantage, they need to do something about adding weight in the engine compartment to compensate, but there's not a lot of room there to be bolting on weight.

For those asking why the weight location is a big deal? The Achilles heel of a big block modified is that big heavy engine in the front of it. If you can put in a lighter, similarly powered engine, you can then move that saved weight around the car to increase handling... thus, the advantage.

 

Finally someone who gets it 😂

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14 hours ago, rpm72x said:

Yes it was quite the discussion, but I wasn’t putting words in Alan’s or Gary’s mouth....just reading what was written. I do not expect anyone to put much value on what I write on a forum....as I don’t put much on anyone else’s posts. But those 2 guys may know a little bit about the topic. Alan was winning modified races long before anyone knew who Kevlar was, and he has also been a part of both sides of the financial spectrum as it pertains to racing. So I value his words far more than anything I’ve read on Facebook or on here regarding big block racing. 

No you're totally right, regardless of whether or not someone is a fan of any specific driver or person really doesn't matter - I'd like think most people are smart enough to at least respect what people who have been around that long have to say.  The problem with any of these changes is they all benefit someone, and they all hurt someone.  Would a new, cheaper engine package get more guys to move into the big block ranks, thus helping them?  It certainly could, in theory.  But would it hurt people already there?  Certainly could, in theory.  

I stand by my constant thought that the solution is to eventually shift to the late model engine package.  

Oh and my comment about Mr. Spraker was all in good fun, that was an interesting side convo on that FB thread!  :)  :) 

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2 hours ago, luke81 said:

 

>> I stand by my constant thought that the solution is to eventually shift to the late model engine package.  

I think you are right ... although weekly racing is not so great in Super Late Model country for the most part. Generally, the division has healthy regional touring series, special events are big deals, but most weekly tracks don't seem to be pulling that many more Late Models than our local tracks pull Modifieds. Even Kenny Wallace and what's left of his NASCAR money went Modified racing because he said the cost for Late Models is just astronomical.

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1 hour ago, BillSmith said:

>> I stand by my constant thought that the solution is to eventually shift to the late model engine package.  

I think you are right ... although weekly racing is not so great in Super Late Model country for the most part. Generally, the division has healthy regional touring series, special events are big deals, but most weekly tracks don't seem to be pulling that many more Late Models than our local tracks pull Modifieds. Even Kenny Wallace and what's left of his NASCAR money went Modified racing because he said the cost for Late Models is just astronomical.

I really don't see how switching to the late model motors would be a benefit to anyone. You aren't saving money anywhere building aluminum small blocks and having a spread bore one ready to go in your other car. I think what deyo is doing beats that any day

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1 hour ago, Devin Willis said:

I really don't see how switching to the late model motors would be a benefit to anyone. You aren't saving money anywhere building aluminum small blocks and having a spread bore one ready to go in your other car. I think what deyo is doing beats that any day

A spread bore aluminum small block can be had for less than the cost of a big block from certain builders. I mean, sure, if you call Durham or Cornett you’re gonna pay 45-55k but most other places you’re looking at 30-35k for a decent piece. You can get freshened used motors for 25k all day long. 

You could also do open steel blocks. Sure, most everybody would end up with a 430, but there are already some floating around in Deyo land. 

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A super good steel block 415 with 13 degree heads built and shipped to your door from Mullins can be done for less than 30k....there are a few here winning in the modifieds now....that engine will beat a big block most nights....that’s not speculation....you can call and inquire....they will tell anyone the price

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19 minutes ago, Josh Bayko said:

A spread bore aluminum small block can be had for less than the cost of a big block from certain builders. I mean, sure, if you call Durham or Cornett you’re gonna pay 45-55k but most other places you’re looking at 30-35k for a decent piece. You can get freshened used motors for 25k all day long. 

You could also do open steel blocks. Sure, most everybody would end up with a 430, but there are already some floating around in Deyo 

And you can buy a used big block for 15 to 30 depending on what you want to get. I'm just not seeing the savings. If you allow an aluminum block motor with anywhere close to the same power you have to run it. There is no option to run a steel big block vs an aluminum one at similar power

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1 hour ago, Josh Bayko said:

I mean, sure, if you call Durham or Cornett you’re gonna pay 45-55k but most other places you’re looking at 30-35k for a decent piece.

IF...

We ever allowed the Late Model engine package, history tells me that we'd have certain teams running the $55,000 engines and the expense argument continues - just like when Hutter was the big ticket, or Finger Lakes, Feil and Precision.

In my opinion, every time we try to fix things by throwing band aids at it, we screw it up worse than if we just let it sort itself out by letting the cream rise to the top and the better option prevail. Unfortunately, some drivers and tracks will go away because track promoters, sanctioning bodies and drivers/team owners will never agree to compromise.

 

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4 minutes ago, BobMiller said:

IF...

We ever allowed the Late Model engine package, history tells me that we'd have certain teams running the $55,000 engines and the expense argument continues - just like when Hutter was the big ticket, or Finger Lakes, Feil and Precision.

In my opinion, every time we try to fix things by throwing band aids at it, we screw it up worse than if we just let it sort itself out by letting the cream rise to the top and the better option prevail. Unfortunately, some drivers and tracks will go away because track promoters, sanctioning bodies and drivers/team owners will never agree to compromise.

 

I don’t know that Durham, Clements and Cornett would be the hot ticket, at least right away. The torque curves on those motors are highly specialized and  set up for high downforce cars that have a crapload of rear steer and you never really get all the way out of the throttle. I don’t know how well that would translate to modifieds. I tend to think it would end up where the guys currently building mod motors would end up still being the guys to go to. That’s not to say they’d be much cheaper, if at all, than Durham, Clements and Cornett but the money would proverbially stay in the NE. 

 

 

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