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Big Blocks are a dieing breed. Small Blocks are the Future. Change my mind. 

Was reading the STSS rules for the first time ever last night. Now thats what a modified class should look like engine wise. BB, SB with nearly any cubic inch you want. Bring your weapon of choice and race it. 

Is there a future for the SDSS? IMO, Nope. Unless they go with a STSS model. 

Is there a need for a BB and SB sereis? IMO, nope. 

Is there a difference in quality of racing between BB's and SB's? IMO nope. 

Projection on how long the BB class will be around. IMO, within 10 years BB's will be a thing of the past. 

I've heard rumors that there may be one less weekly BB track next year. Time will tell. 

Will fuel injection, be it throttle body or multi port be on mods in the future? Hopefully. 

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John, 

if you think the post was so wrong why not pm him? Using the Lords name in vain isn’t much better. As the number of BB decrease it will only get more costly to build. Let say a company runs 100 sets of the same SB piston to 5 -10 sets of BB . The less something is mass produced the more costly it becomes. Long as there’s good car count who cares what’s under the hood?? There a lot of great crate racing going on. 

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16 minutes ago, Eagleonemotorsports said:

John, 

if you think the post was so wrong why not pm him? Using the Lords name in vain isn’t much better. As the number of BB decrease it will only get more costly to build. Let say a company runs 100 sets of the same SB piston to 5 -10 sets of BB . The less something is mass produced the more costly it becomes. Long as there’s good car count who cares what’s under the hood?? There a lot of great crate racing going on. 

I dont think he cares what motor they run. I think the issue is that we have this conversation what seems like once a month

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I guess i dont see whats wrong with the post. Was just trying to start an intelligent conversation of the potential future of the mod class. If there is a current thread on the topic my apologies. 

Brewerton is down to 10-12 big blocks a night. I cant speak for the other couple of BB tracks as i dont follow them much. The SDS really isnt in much better shape with the some being small block field fillers. 

Cost vs availability factor, in my opinion leads me to believe small blocks are the way forward to help bring car counts back. Be it under a dirt 358 model or a STSS model. If we look at late models, sprint cars and IMCA style mods they all utilize the SB engine and seem to do well. 

and to further explore the fuel injection stuff, what about the addition of aluminum blocks? Lates and sprints use them but are taboo in the mod world. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Devin Willis said:

I dont think he cares what motor they run. I think the issue is that we have this conversation what seems like once a month

In all fairness i also did bring up fuel injection and now aluminum blocks which ive never seen in a thread before. Dirt racing historicaly lives in the past and is extremely slow to embrace current technology thats been around approximately 25+ years already. 

and nobody forced anyone to click on the thread. if its repetitive would it not cost less time to breeze by it than to log on and leave asinine comments? 

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15 minutes ago, 80K said:

In all fairness i also did bring up fuel injection and now aluminum blocks which ive never seen in a thread before. Dirt racing historicaly lives in the past and is extremely slow to embrace current technology thats been around approximately 25+ years already. 

and nobody forced anyone to click on the thread. if its repetitive would it not cost less time to breeze by it than to log on and leave asinine comments? 

We just had a big thread on aluminum blocks. Bad idea every person would have to buy a new motor. Fuel injection maybe but it is also expensive so why change everyone already has a carb

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The Super DIRTcar Series isn't going away. We might see some more tracks go small blocks weekly, but the car counts on the SDS have actually been up this year compared to last year (off the top of my head, I think the car count went up for every show this year other than the Big Show at Albany). Big blocks are absolutely expensive, I know there are things going on behind the scenes that they're trying to do to address that problem. Hopefully something comes to fruition from it that works out for everyone.

I actually expected the 358 DIRTcar Series to go away a few years ago. They didn't have much of a schedule, they didn't have much support in terms of drivers. As you mentioned, the influx of small block racing seems to have really re-ignited the tour this year. With that being said, Utica Rome had a huge drop in attendance compared to 2018's 358 Series race, so it'll be interesting to see how support for the Tour goes the rest of the year.

As for 358s and big blocks, there are quite a few drivers that do not like racing 358s, feeling like they're underpowered and "boring" to drive. As a fan, I understand that lap times are similar, and maybe I'm in the minority, but I can tell (and feel) the difference when I'm at a big block race versus a 358 race. I still support 358 shows here and there (being in PA I'm in the heart of spec small block racing) but I'm definitely far more of a big-block supporter.

The STSS North region continues to get the highest car counts of any series by a solid margin. Their rules are perfect for most of the tracks they run (Accord, Woodhull, Outlaw, Afton, etc)  and the fantastic car counts reflect that.

The STSS South region has seen car counts dip a bit because those same motor rules, running at bigger/heavier tracks, the open small blocks have a pretty big advantage. I know a lot of people brushed off BAPS only getting 24 modifieds for the $10,000-to-win STSS South race because they don't have a weekly field to draw from, but that event dropped 11 cars from a car count of 35 the previous year. Big Diamond's STSS show drew more cars last year on a rainout than it did this year (37 car is still a good field, so don't misconstrue that as Diamond's show being a disappointment at all). The problem with the South region is the same as when the old DIRT South Series was in existence. The majority of the tracks in the area are filled with spec small blocks. Those motors aren't all that competitive whether you're running with either DIRTcar rules (against mostly big blocks) or STSS rules (against mostly open small blocks)

What's the actual answer? No idea. There are a lot of drivers that prefer one set of rules over the other and you see them support that specific series because of it. I just hope Brett and Dean/WRG continue working their asses off and stay healthy for a long-long time. Despite a lot of banter back and forth on here about which everyone prefers, having 2 healthy touring series is fantastic for our sport!

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Hate to say it but if anyone thinks you could start a thread and not get atleast 1 (usually more) assine comment, your severely mistaken. 

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'Everybody's gonna have to buy new stuff'...

I've heard that an awful lot...and it's true...BUT...how much higher will costs rise when you're essentially trying to buy something that's no longer made, widely used, or is only manufactured/sold by a select few?

For racing to survive, it must change WITH the times, not AFTER them.  Will it price people out?  Yes, in the short term it will.

Will it bring in others?  Possibly.

Will it continue to stagnate/deteriorate if we try to stay in our little bubble and hope everything turns out OK?  Definitely.

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If tracks started going to the STSS rules of run more or less whatever motor will bolt into the chassis, then it won't price anyone out, at least not right away. BB guys can still race, SB guys can still race and OSB (Open Small Block, Late Model engines, whatever) can race. Eventually, guys will start to meander over to the OSB once their stuff is used up and they have to get new parts/engines anyhow. 

The thing is, if you have just one Modified Class, you're going to lose a lot of cars at the tracks that run both BB and SB classes. A lot of guys run both, so you'd be limiting them to only one, so it's not like you'd all of a sudden go from 25 BB modifieds and 20 SB modifieds to 45 in the premier class. It'd be more like maybe 35 (just using random numbers here to illustrate my point.) 

There's a lot of positives to a one set of rules across the board, but there are negatives too. Not too sure it'll ever happen but I think it's the direction this glacier is moving and at about that pace as well. 

As for fuel injection... Probably see that happen in the next decade. Had it before, can have it again. It doesn't need to be stupidly expensive, it all depends on what they want to run. You could go mechanical with the stacks up through the hood, or you can go electronic but that's going to open a can or worms I'm not sure anyone want to unseal. With a little bit of time to learn and a laptop, I'm pretty confident guys a lot smarter than me could write some voodoo in there to do all kinds of stuff. 

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Small guy is 100% correct.....the big blocks have deteriorated because they have priced themselves out to most....this was something that could have been avoided, it wasn’t. I’m a huge deyo/stss supporter, but the “ open” small block rules will do the same in time. That series should have stayed a primarily open 358 series. Everyone had them and everyone could afford them. I certainly can tell the difference between open small blocks/big blocks and spec head 358s, unfortunately they are probably the future....they are affordable to build, even though the guys winning a lot are spending more for a subpar performing spec head than they would for an open 358. But car counts in that class are jumping quite rapidly. Yes some big block guys would be done if those engines were gone, but most would just buy small blocks, bitch a lot, and race....The deyo series will be the premier series as it is now as far as far counts, for a time, but the big teams are spending huge money on track particular engines. This is not sustainable either. Grass roots dirt racing has to be affordable to grass roots workers. While some say the modifieds are for professionals, there are only 10 or so professional modified drivers, a class or series cannot stay alive long without more support.

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As a general rule the 358 tour hundred lappers have been very good with not many cautions.

Matt Williamson has been doing it up with the W16 which is around $10,500 cash n carry.

 

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22 minutes ago, smallguy said:

'Everybody's gonna have to buy new stuff'...

I've heard that an awful lot...and it's true...BUT...how much higher will costs rise when you're essentially trying to buy something that's no longer made, widely used, or is only manufactured/sold by a select few?

For racing to survive, it must change WITH the times, not AFTER them.  Will it price people out?  Yes, in the short term it will.

Will it bring in others?  Possibly.

Will it continue to stagnate/deteriorate if we try to stay in our little bubble and hope everything turns out OK?  Definitely.

Yeah if you go to aluminum blocks your literally asking every person that races to run out and spend 40k per motor to switch. You're going to want 2 if you race more than 1 day a week. I think that's a sure bet to kill whatever we have going right now. I just dont see the point of switching to fuel injecting right now. If you have a counter arguement to either of those then I'm willing to hear it

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Boy, I sure wish I could find that article from AARN a few years ago where the consensus from owners, drivers, and engine builders was that small block engines needed to be refreshed more often than big blocks, making the cost difference between the two engines over time negligible.  

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6 minutes ago, DaRooster said:

Boy, I sure wish I could find that article from AARN a few years ago where the consensus from owners, drivers, and engine builders was that small block engines needed to be refreshed more often than big blocks, making the cost difference between the two engines over time negligible.  

Probably is negligible over time but the startup cost is very different. They might be more expensive to maintain these days as well but You would need someone like rob hile to comment on that

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The initial investment is quite a bit higher on a big block....rebuilds are cheaper with a small block....failures are far less common with a big block....

small blocks are far easier to drive.....far easier to be competitive for the average racer....there are far more parts and used engines available.

a huge cost nobody thinks about is how hard a big block is on the chassis and parts. Builders estimate that you get around 40 races out of a big block car, a small block can go double that easily and still be winning. Your maintenance schedule for driveline parts/wear items will amplify quickly with a big block. Whatever costs you save on freshening motors will be spent a few times over on frames and parts. 

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Actually, I think 40 races on a BB chassis is pushing it.  I wouldn't go more than 25.

 

You can run an open SB more times than a big block today without rebuilding, but rpm72x is right, it should have been the ported steel headed 358 the motor used, now you have to have a dry sump 430. Stupid and could have been avoided. 

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15 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

small blocks are far easier to drive.....far easier to be competitive for the average racer....there are far more parts and used engines available.

Geez.... more cars with a chance to win....What a terrible problem to have as compared to the 4 or 5 guys that win 90% of the Series races now...

 

 

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I happen to know a guy that has a big block. Looking to get a new one and engine builder he talked to it was between 50 and 70 grand. All depended on what he wanted. 

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20 minutes ago, leakin_fluids said:

Geez.... more cars with a chance to win....What a terrible problem to have as compared to the 4 or 5 guys that win 90% of the Series races now...

 

 

I agree it’s much better for racing all around. With that said....I do not like the spec head deal. There is no tech....you already have to call Rons Port Work, Mike’s Cylinder Heads or HVH and spend double the money for the cheater heads to be really competitive. If anyone tells you they are not being bought in abundance they are full of shit. Rons, HVH, Or Mike’s will tell you they sell them everyday. The spec head engine costs as much to build as a good ported 358, and even with the better heads, Honda rod journals, and lightweight everything, they would have their hands full with the old open sportsman motors. The problem I have with the open small block deal is it eliminated 90% of the 358s from being competitive. Most anyone who has built anything 370c.i. Or bigger, had a 358 to begin with. Now dependent on each track you race at, a 430 may be what you need, or a 406, or a 377 etc. There was no reason to open the rules up any further than the old 358 rules.

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Truth be told, most big block guys just hate the fact that they spent 55k on a big block and they would get their ass beat 90% of the time by a 15-20k used 415 or 430. Hard pill to swallow. Heck...They threw temper tantrums years back when AJ, Bob Henry, and willy Decker were beating them at brewerton with 358s and a 50 lb weight break. 

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8 hours ago, 80K said:

I guess i dont see whats wrong with the post. Was just trying to start an intelligent conversation of the potential future of the mod class. 

 

John just has a raging boner to be a comedian and a nut buster🌭

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