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airborne considering making 358's a thing of the past

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20 hours ago, Bicknell16w said:

I haven't posted here in quite a few years but I guess it's as good as time as any. These sportsman guys that think they can't afford to move up because of price of a 358 aren't talking to the right person. To think you need a 20000+ small block to compete are just wrong. There are plenty of engines out there for less than 10000 including the w16. I've got one of these 358's that keep up just fine for alot less than 20,000 that everyone thinks you need 

W16 is still going to cost you 16k american to get setup to start. Sure the motor is 13500 but that's still almost 3 602s. You're probably buying more expensive fuel and you'll be harder on tires. Aluminum body shocks are like 150 more expensive. I'm not sure what a refresh is looking like on a w16 or how fast they get them fixed if you have a problem. 

 

Even if you have the money to do it theres the question of why move up? How many guys in sportsman could move up and be competitive in a 358? 

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3 hours ago, Devin Willis said:

W16 is still going to cost you 16k american to get setup to start. Sure the motor is 13500 but that's still almost 3 602s. You're probably buying more expensive fuel and you'll be harder on tires. Aluminum body shocks are like 150 more expensive. I'm not sure what a refresh is looking like on a w16 or how fast they get them fixed if you have a problem. 

 

Even if you have the money to do it theres the question of why move up? How many guys in sportsman could move up and be competitive in a 358? 

Your 100% correct...everyone forgets the added costs to be competitive....fuel, tires, shocks, general maintenance. On top of that a super competitive sportsman guy that’s in the top 5 each night will be taking a pay cut most nights in a 358. Kevin root would not make anywhere near as much money next year in a small block. The sportsman class is not only fairly affordable compared to a modified, but there is a ton of good paying sportsman races. The top guys have no reason to move up. 

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The mentality that you need everything brand new to be competitive is unreal. There are sportsman guys that have a larger budget than my raceteam for sure and are definitely good enough to move up to 358 class. Race fuel is within a dollar of each other as in octane. I'm my opinion the guys that are running up front are putting on new rubber on just about every week and how would general maintenance be much different from a crate car to a 358? And finally you'd be racing for 12 to 1500 weekly to win instead of 500. And the 34 car is definitely good enough to move up and contend for the win weekly

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24 minutes ago, Bicknell16w said:

The mentality that you need everything brand new to be competitive is unreal. There are sportsman guys that have a larger budget than my raceteam for sure and are definitely good enough to move up to 358 class. Race fuel is within a dollar of each other as in octane. I'm my opinion the guys that are running up front are putting on new rubber on just about every week and how would general maintenance be much different from a crate car to a 358? And finally you'd be racing for 12 to 1500 weekly to win instead of 500. And the 34 car is definitely good enough to move up and contend for the win weekly

i have ised this argument over and over again with sportsman guys i feel should move up, or can move up.  They feel they cant, but if they seen what we spent and run fairly competitive, the purse difference themselves pay more than the freshen of engines.  Yes there will be guys that outspend us and there is nothing we can do about it, but i feel on any given night i can compete with the best with less than top notch engines or equipment.

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1 hour ago, Bicknell16w said:

The mentality that you need everything brand new to be competitive is unreal. There are sportsman guys that have a larger budget than my raceteam for sure and are definitely good enough to move up to 358 class. Race fuel is within a dollar of each other as in octane. I'm my opinion the guys that are running up front are putting on new rubber on just about every week and how would general maintenance be much different from a crate car to a 358? And finally you'd be racing for 12 to 1500 weekly to win instead of 500. And the 34 car is definitely good enough to move up and contend for the win weekly

So you believe dave marcuccelli, and Ronnie Davis are making more money now than when they were winning 15-25 races a year and a couple of track championships? Your going to spend more on D109 plus have to deal with that maintenance. Most 358 guys here in cny that are running just 1 night a week and specials, have 2 motors and freshen 1 during the season for the end of the year. Shock maintenance increases, tire cost increases and the wins will not come as frequently. Yes, some sportsman teams are spending boat loads, but they spend that much, win a lot and have tons of fun....move up, spend the same, and not have anywhere near the fun. Sure, the drivers that don’t pay the bills probably enjoy it more, but the guys covering cost and getting the pay at the end of the night won’t, especially if success doesn’t come fairly quickly. A lot of guys would rather be the cream of the crop rather than an average joe stuck in the crowd, and that ok.

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I don't think the issue is whether guys "can" or "can't" move up to 358 ... it's the fact that they WON'T move up. It's just not happening in this area.

Honestly, I think most consistent top 5 Sportsman guys could move up to 358 and be very competitive but they feel that they can't make the jump. I think most of these guys assume, "why move up to be a sometime top 10 guy when I can finish top 5 half the time where I am."

The tracks don't have a lot of options if the drivers don't want to move up and I can't blame them rethinking the wisdom of shelling out the highest purse for a class that draws 12-15 cars and about 10 by the end of the season when they can draw more than full fields for a class that costs them half the money to pay out and brings in 2-3 times the pit revenue. Unless the grandstands are overflowing with fans to offset that purse, it doesn't make sense to have a premier class that is not drawing a premier crowd.

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I for one would not go to a track that had sportsman as the top class.The features are long with restart after restart.A lot of the drivers in sportsman have no clue how to drive and most features are bad to watch.I do think most of the good drivers don,t move up because they know they won,t win as much .

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On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:34 AM, Devin Willis said:

More people in the area by Fulton. Theres so many tracks up here and just not enough people to support a full class at every track 3 nights a week

And fulton cant promote to save their life

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2 hours ago, hunter49 said:

I for one would not go to a track that had sportsman as the top class.The features are long with restart after restart.A lot of the drivers in sportsman have no clue how to drive and most features are bad to watch.I do think most of the good drivers don,t move up because they know they won,t win as much .

Well, in places like Plattsburgh, that means get used to driving 1-1\2 hours one-way to another track or getting a new hobby.

You could go out and buy a race track and show everyone how it's supposed to be done.

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Hunter49, by your statement every bb/sb race you have seen has been outstanding? You have never seen one that is a caution fest?

do tell what track you attend so we all can come check it out and see for ourselves 

I've seen 4cyl races that put the mods to shame, and I've seen it the other way around with every class. They all have a bad night on occasion.

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1 hour ago, dan dan said:

Hunter49, by your statement every bb/sb race you have seen has been outstanding? You have never seen one that is a caution fest?

do tell what track you attend so we all can come check it out and see for ourselves 

I've seen 4cyl races that put the mods to shame, and I've seen it the other way around with every class. They all have a bad night on occasion.

I just said I wouldn,t go.If you like them so much go ahead and watch them

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5 hours ago, BillSmith said:

Well, in places like Plattsburgh, that means get used to driving 1-1\2 hours one-way to another track or getting a new hobby.

You could go out and buy a race track and show everyone how it's supposed to be done.

I drive 2 hrs to my closest track every sat.. night and 3hrs on some fri. nights but I wouldn,t if sportsman were the top class.

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I like dirt racing in general. I don't get the proverbial chubby for just one class.  

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4 hours ago, hunter49 said:

I drive 2 hrs to my closest track every sat.. night and 3hrs on some fri. nights but I wouldn,t if sportsman were the top class.

That kind of dedication is admirable ... but there aren't a lot of folks willing to do that every week.

I personally want to see great racing, I don't care if it is mini-stocks, Pro Stocks, Sportsman, Micro-sprints or Legends. I've been to a lot of tracks on a lot of nights where the Street Stocks or Sportsman put the Modifieds to shame in terms of racing ... every night is different, that's the nature of racing.

I love the Modifieds but I worry about their viability as a weekly division up here -- car counts are great for the big special events, but for weekly racing in Northern NY, the 358s are really dwindling. 20 years ago, Can-Am and Frogtown both pulled full fields competing head to head. Now, you would barely get a full field some nights if you put both tracks' fields combined together. It's a little concerning.

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