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7 minutes ago, gary tomkins said:

There's a lot more to it than just coil springs, though the technology on them is more advanced than what it was when they were last "the hot setup". (FYI the night of Danny Johnson's come from last victory at Rolling Wheels in our other car can be partially attributed to the fact that we wanted to try coil overs on the back of a car, but didn't want to change the car we had been running because of how good it ran). So anyway, along with coil overs, the panard rod has been moved to the left side and the rear radius rods have been shortened. Things are a little complicated right now, but basically they're trying to build rear roll steer into the cars similar to what the late models are doing. Right now there's a lot of experimentation going on to try and find out what the "hot setups" are with this style of rear suspension, but I think it will get simplified once things get sorted out more. The cars actually drive a little differently, it doesn't sound right to say you have to drive them "harder", but I guess that's the best way to explain it. 

thanks Gary!

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44 minutes ago, gary tomkins said:

There's a lot more to it than just coil springs, though the technology on them is more advanced than what it was when they were last "the hot setup". (FYI the night of Danny Johnson's come from last victory at Rolling Wheels in our other car can be partially attributed to the fact that we wanted to try coil overs on the back of a car, but didn't want to change the car we had been running because of how good it ran). So anyway, along with coil overs, the panard rod has been moved to the left side and the rear radius rods have been shortened. Things are a little complicated right now, but basically they're trying to build rear roll steer into the cars similar to what the late models are doing. Right now there's a lot of experimentation going on to try and find out what the "hot setups" are with this style of rear suspension, but I think it will get simplified once things get sorted out more. The cars actually drive a little differently, it doesn't sound right to say you have to drive them "harder", but I guess that's the best way to explain it. 

I think it would make our cars so much more of a racecar if we eliminated the straight front axle and allowed independent front suspension (Although it would not be cost effective). We can continue to build traction into the cars, but once again we will hit our ceiling quite quickly because of the solid axle. Traction is only helpful if you can still point yourself in the right direction. It is cool to see all of the various different setups that guys are using on our cars, short rods, long rods, using 1 of each, torsion bars, coils, stacked springs, j bars, and panhard bars. It’s kind of a small Renaissance of innovation even though most of this stuff has been tried in the past. 

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20 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

I think it would make our cars so much more of a racecar if we eliminated the straight front axle and allowed independent front suspension (Although it would not be cost effective). We can continue to build traction into the cars, but once again we will hit our ceiling quite quickly because of the solid axle. Traction is only helpful if you can still point yourself in the right direction. It is cool to see all of the various different setups that guys are using on our cars, short rods, long rods, using 1 of each, torsion bars, coils, stacked springs, j bars, and panhard bars. It’s kind of a small Renaissance of innovation even though most of this stuff has been tried in the past. 

I've heard that from other people, but by making only a straight front axle legal it keeps the cost down considerably. Opening up the rules to allow A frame front ends would immediately obsolete every straight car out there in any division it would be allowed in.

You're right about a lot of this stuff being tried before though, it's just different combinations trying to find the most speed. I was talking to Pat Ward Friday and we were wondering when the left side W link was going to be tried again lol.

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19 minutes ago, gary tomkins said:

I've heard that from other people, but by making only a straight front axle legal it keeps the cost down considerably. Opening up the rules to allow A frame front ends would immediately obsolete every straight car out there in any division it would be allowed in.

You're right about a lot of this stuff being tried before though, it's just different combinations trying to find the most speed. I was talking to Pat Ward Friday and we were wondering when the left side W link was going to be tried again lol.

Very true, there is far enough money spent already.....someday maybe it could become a modified only deal. Keep the sportsman on a straight axle, originally the sportsman were supposed to be old modified chassis to begin with. As strange as it is I hear it all the time from southern fans that our cars are just slow, to me they put on the best show but some people just like sound and speed....the independent front suspension would certainly close the gap with late models considerably.

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Wasn't the sportsman supposed to be I think atleast 2 year old cars to begin with? It certainly didn't last long. 

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33 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

the independent front suspension would certainly close the gap with late models considerably.

Lighten them up and put LM tires on and the gap would close considerably...cant be overlooked that the Hoosier mod tire is nothing like an open comp late model tire.

Back on the topic of coilovers...seems like this weekend even the (bicknell) guys who were trying different stuff all got on the "factory" package...short links, left side bar, coil overs.  Even Rudolph and Wight.  Seems like things could settle down again.  But I don't think the setups are going to get stagnant yet.

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52 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

The independent front suspension would certainly close the gap with late models considerably.

The aero and tire differences would still keep them pretty far apart. 


 

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1 hour ago, gary tomkins said:

I've heard that from other people, but by making only a straight front axle legal it keeps the cost down considerably. Opening up the rules to allow A frame front ends would immediately obsolete every straight car out there in any division it would be allowed in.

You're right about a lot of this stuff being tried before though, it's just different combinations trying to find the most speed. I was talking to Pat Ward Friday and we were wondering when the left side W link was going to be tried again lol.

Are you posting this from your hotel room in Charlotte? Or did you drive all night and get on the computer before going to bed? Either way, your answers and dedication to DTD are greatly appreciated!

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2 hours ago, Josh Bayko said:

The aero and tire differences would still keep them pretty far apart. 


 

Last night the lap times between the mods and late models were within 1-1.5 seconds.....that is both features and last chance races....I know the track changed for each....but if the time and r/d got put into a big block with independent front suspension, which would then allow for a 4 link rear suspension....the late models would have their hands full with our mods. The tires would still be a big difference until you put American racers on the modifieds...that would start to equalize as well.

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1 hour ago, rpm72x said:

Last night the lap times between the mods and late models were within 1-1.5 seconds.....that is both features and last chance races....I know the track changed for each....but if the time and r/d got put into a big block with independent front suspension, which would then allow for a 4 link rear suspension....the late models would have their hands full with our mods. The tires would still be a big difference until you put American racers on the modifieds...that would start to equalize as well.

Late models will always carry so much more speed through the corner because of aero. All of the development of four links in late model racing has been to take advantage of how much  downforce the body provides. Modern lates don’t really resemble the old wedge cars, but when they’re on the bars and the spoiler is 50-60” in the air while the nose glides maybe 1/2” off the ground they are effectively wedge cars all over again. 
 

I do agree that independent front ends in a big block would largely result in four link cars becoming the norm and the attitude of the cars would be very similar to late models, but getting 13–15” of droop in a mod would be pretty counterproductive aero-wise. Mods already make so much rear downforce that giving them even more rear downforce would pull the front end up so hard that you straight up wouldn’t be able to hold or seal the nose. 

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2 minutes ago, Josh Bayko said:

Late models will always carry so much more speed through the corner because of aero. All of the development of four links in late model racing has been to take advantage of how much  downforce the body provides. Modern lates don’t really resemble the old wedge cars, but when they’re on the bars and the spoiler is 50-60” in the air while the nose glides maybe 1/2” off the ground they are effectively wedge cars all over again. 
 

I do agree that independent front ends in a big block would largely result in four link cars becoming the norm and the attitude of the cars would be very similar to late models, but getting 13–15” of droop in a mod would be pretty counterproductive aero-wise. Mods already make so much rear downforce that giving them even more rear downforce would pull the front end up so hard that you straight up wouldn’t be able to hold or seal the nose. 

I agree completely, but if we are even 2 seconds slower now than a late model....gain 1.5 seconds with independent front suspension, which would eventually be the case.... the gap has greatly decreased....while continuing to build rear traction would certainly start to become an issue with holding the nose on the ground, we have all sorts of room with weight to balance the racecars back out. We are usually 64-66 percent rear, and have tall decks in the car...those modified norms would begin to sway the other direction. It would also open the cars back up to some ingenuity. For some time smarts in the shop, may challenge dollars in the wallet. If having 60% rear became the hot setup, you could instantly drop 5k off from an engine build with no longer having to lighten the blocks. It would be an interesting switch, but one that will probably never be allowed.

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4 hours ago, By The Book said:

Are you posting this from your hotel room in Charlotte? Or did you drive all night and get on the computer before going to bed? Either way, your answers and dedication to DTD are greatly appreciated!

Got home at 7:30 this morning.

If independent front suspension were allowed, the northeast mods would soon begin to look like UMP mods because you would need more front end downforce to balance the car. 

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47 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

Larry wight has a car years back that had a ump style front nose on it....

The nose itself doesn’t matter so much without the flat or very slightly raked deck. 

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I asked him about it at the time, they were hoping for some extra downforce to help turn the cars, especially with American racers. This was back when Fulton and brewerton were using them as the track tire. He didn’t feel a whole lot, but the rest of the body was mostly standard. It would take a lot of new set up stuff to make a arms work in a mod, but they would excel quickly if the rules changed. There were a few cars trying lf droop limiters this season, which is common in the late model world....the rebound numbers on the rf were creeping up quite a bit over the years, but you hit a point with a modified where it begins to pick the tire with all of our weight transfer, which completely ruins the concept. Our modifieds have kind of been stagnant for years as far as design, the new rear suspension stuff is cool, but it’s recycled technology. I think the independent front end would be awesome to play with, would make our cars more similar to ump/late models but it’s completely understandable why it won’t happen. 

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30 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

I asked him about it at the time, they were hoping for some extra downforce to help turn the cars, especially with American racers. This was back when Fulton and brewerton were using them as the track tire. He didn’t feel a whole lot, but the rest of the body was mostly standard. It would take a lot of new set up stuff to make a arms work in a mod, but they would excel quickly if the rules changed. There were a few cars trying lf droop limiters this season, which is common in the late model world....the rebound numbers on the rf were creeping up quite a bit over the years, but you hit a point with a modified where it begins to pick the tire with all of our weight transfer, which completely ruins the concept. Our modifieds have kind of been stagnant for years as far as design, the new rear suspension stuff is cool, but it’s recycled technology. I think the independent front end would be awesome to play with, would make our cars more similar to ump/late models but it’s completely understandable why it won’t happen. 

Let's leave our modifieds alone.  If I want to see UMP modifieds, I'll go to a track where they're running.  Which I won't 

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22 hours ago, gary tomkins said:

There's a lot more to it than just coil springs, though the technology on them is more advanced than what it was when they were last "the hot setup". (FYI the night of Danny Johnson's come from last victory at Rolling Wheels in our other car can be partially attributed to the fact that we wanted to try coil overs on the back of a car, but didn't want to change the car we had been running because of how good it ran). So anyway, along with coil overs, the panard rod has been moved to the left side and the rear radius rods have been shortened. Things are a little complicated right now, but basically they're trying to build rear roll steer into the cars similar to what the late models are doing. Right now there's a lot of experimentation going on to try and find out what the "hot setups" are with this style of rear suspension, but I think it will get simplified once things get sorted out more. The cars actually drive a little differently, it doesn't sound right to say you have to drive them "harder", but I guess that's the best way to explain it. 

Thanks Gary. I like when you lend your expertise on here. I've seen cars with coils with right side panard and also with left side setup. How do left side and right side panard setups work? Is there a certain type of track surface where one works better?

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18 hours ago, Josh Bayko said:

The nose itself doesn’t matter so much without the flat or very slightly raked deck. 

So not to stir the debate of NE modifieds versus late models but I have a question. 

I actually think the late models are really entertaining to watch and put on a great show.   The only problem I have with them is the nose.  It's like they didn't have anything to put on the front end so they just found this plastic nose piece that's a little too big and kinda works.  It's almost like taking a bumper from a Silverado and throwing it on the front of a Honda Civic (ok maybe not that drastic).

Like I said,  not trying to make controversy of which car looks better but can't they come up with a design that transitions from nose to body better? 

Just to make it fair,  I'll pick on the mods too, when mod guys wedge the rubber peice on the nose that kind of bugs me too. I understand it's too compensate for the lean going into the corners but what about your straight away aero! And that's if it's really doing anything productive for aero in the corners anyways. Hearn's always sticks out to me because it's usually neon green. 

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Mods are aero imbalanced towards the rear. Any little bit that can be gained in front will be a help, especially since most of the downforce is generated behind the rear axle. Ideally if you could get the front bumper/shock tower area covered you could make huge gains but for now there's not good way to make that happen.

Gary - Is your comment about 'driving harder' related to more time on the throttle in order to get the rear steer? The amount of forward motion I see on the left rear is very much like late model/UMP mod.

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5 hours ago, inthecuse said:

So not to stir the debate of NE modifieds versus late models but I have a question. 

I actually think the late models are really entertaining to watch and put on a great show.   The only problem I have with them is the nose.  It's like they didn't have anything to put on the front end so they just found this plastic nose piece that's a little too big and kinda works.  It's almost like taking a bumper from a Silverado and throwing it on the front of a Honda Civic (ok maybe not that drastic).

Like I said,  not trying to make controversy of which car looks better but can't they come up with a design that transitions from nose to body better? 

Just to make it fair,  I'll pick on the mods too, when mod guys wedge the rubber peice on the nose that kind of bugs me too. I understand it's too compensate for the lean going into the corners but what about your straight away aero! And that's if it's really doing anything productive for aero in the corners anyways. Hearn's always sticks out to me because it's usually neon green. 

I think the MD3 noses and the bodies in general looked way better back in 2008. They were still basically straight and symmetrical with a flat deck that was at 36”. It’s all that’s taken place since then where the decks have crept up to 39” and the deck went from flat to dished where it’s flat to the driver and raked up to the spoiler, and the noses are mounted crooked and one ear is 2” and the other is 14” and the whole car is crooked so it’s sealed off in the corner. 

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8 hours ago, scotty29 said:

Thanks Gary. I like when you lend your expertise on here. I've seen cars with coils with right side panard and also with left side setup. How do left side and right side panard setups work? Is there a certain type of track surface where one works better?

I think the feeling at the moment is that the left side panard rod is the hot setup for pretty much everywhere, but the spring and shock package have to work for the conditions. Basically a left side panard rod creates more bite on the left rear tire.

4 hours ago, Bicknell55 said:

Mods are aero imbalanced towards the rear. Any little bit that can be gained in front will be a help, especially since most of the downforce is generated behind the rear axle. Ideally if you could get the front bumper/shock tower area covered you could make huge gains but for now there's not good way to make that happen.

Gary - Is your comment about 'driving harder' related to more time on the throttle in order to get the rear steer? The amount of forward motion I see on the left rear is very much like late model/UMP mod.

Yes mods are aero imbalanced towards the rear which is a reason why changes to the rear suspension are being made, too take advantage of that rear downforce. The thought is to try and get rear steer into the cars similar to what the late models are doing. The "drive harder" comment meant that as a driver you have to try and keep the car "up on the bars" so to speak to keep the left rear in the air so that the rear "steers" around the corner. One way of doing that is to be on the brake pedal before letting off the gas (which is how I usually drive anyway) and to get back on the gas harder once in the corner.

One thing I noticed in Charlotte was that even though there was a lot of brown dirt around the inside of the track during the features, it seemed like the cars worked better just to the outside of that (except for Pat Ward, who was still running torsion bars, he drove to the front running right around the bottom Friday night)  which is similar to the way late models behave. I think that's going to be a good thing at other tracks because it will open up more area for our cars to run and not just be in the brown on the bottom or on the cushion. Time will tell.

6 hours ago, inthecuse said:

So not to stir the debate of NE modifieds versus late models but I have a question. 

I actually think the late models are really entertaining to watch and put on a great show.   The only problem I have with them is the nose.  It's like they didn't have anything to put on the front end so they just found this plastic nose piece that's a little too big and kinda works.  It's almost like taking a bumper from a Silverado and throwing it on the front of a Honda Civic (ok maybe not that drastic).

Like I said,  not trying to make controversy of which car looks better but can't they come up with a design that transitions from nose to body better? 

Just to make it fair,  I'll pick on the mods too, when mod guys wedge the rubber peice on the nose that kind of bugs me too. I understand it's too compensate for the lean going into the corners but what about your straight away aero! And that's if it's really doing anything productive for aero in the corners anyways. Hearn's always sticks out to me because it's usually neon green. 

Every sheetmetal piece on theses cars is there because of rules saying it has to be there or because of aero. Late models are basically a wedge from the right front corner to the left rear corner because they spend a majority of their time on a race track at that attitude. Mod rules don't allow for the bodies to be like that, but they still spend a majority of their time leaned over to the right. That little flap on the nose helps seal it to the track mostly when the cars are in the corner and the nose is closer to the ground. When the cars are on the straights the nose is higher in the air and that flap has less of an effect which is wanted because rear down force is more important to help plant the rear tires.

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6 hours ago, inthecuse said:

So not to stir the debate of NE modifieds versus late models but I have a question. 

I actually think the late models are really entertaining to watch and put on a great show.   The only problem I have with them is the nose.  It's like they didn't have anything to put on the front end so they just found this plastic nose piece that's a little too big and kinda works.  It's almost like taking a bumper from a Silverado and throwing it on the front of a Honda Civic (ok maybe not that drastic).

Like I said,  not trying to make controversy of which car looks better but can't they come up with a design that transitions from nose to body better? 

Just to make it fair,  I'll pick on the mods too, when mod guys wedge the rubber peice on the nose that kind of bugs me too. I understand it's too compensate for the lean going into the corners but what about your straight away aero! And that's if it's really doing anything productive for aero in the corners anyways. Hearn's always sticks out to me because it's usually neon green. 

Late model's make modern dirt mods look good! That's not a complement!😉

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On 11/10/2019 at 10:21 AM, gary tomkins said:

I've heard that from other people, but by making only a straight front axle legal it keeps the cost down considerably. Opening up the rules to allow A frame front ends would immediately obsolete every straight car out there in any division it would be allowed in.

You're right about a lot of this stuff being tried before though, it's just different combinations trying to find the most speed. I was talking to Pat Ward Friday and we were wondering when the left side W link was going to be tried again lol.

I would think  (LFR ) Troyer would hire top runner to get their car back up front ......They have gone backwards since MS left and didn't LFR sponsor MS first year on his own ?  Rite now all clones in BB class.....Time for USA car to take crown again....

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