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HowieTheHat

Lots added to ARRA website....more to come!!

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Ringoes,NJ – Auto Racing Research Associates – ARRA - continue to work towards gathering information to compile in their efforts to document our sports history.  New files are often being added to their ever growing in size and recognition website of documented careers of drivers and the history of tracks, organizations and series’.
   Just released today was the driving career record of New York State popular modified driver Gary Tomkins.  Gary’s research joins recently added drivers Andy Bachetti, researched by historian Bill Braga Jr. and Ricky Elliott who’s work was performed by ARRA historian and President Fred Voorhees.  Look for another fine research project soon by Mr. Braga as he is underway with researching Ronnie Johnson’s career.  
   Farmer City Raceway in Illinios joins the roster of tracks researched by the ARRA staff.  Courtesy of ARRA historian John Nelson, Farmer City brings some racing flavor from another segment of our nations racing map.  You will also find that if you go to the Albany-Saratoga page on our website…there is now complete All Time Win lists for the Modified, Sportsman and Pro Stock divisions.    We want to thank historian Andy Hickock for stepping up to the plate with additional aid in putting this information into our hands!
  ARRA historian Bill Skinner gives his view of heat, consi and feature finishing positions at the Flemington Speedway beginning in 1955 and continues to add the years..currently up to 1963 and growing.  Check it out!  
   Watch as soon, we expect to add enhancements to the Fonda page and work is currently underway to put together a complete history on Wall Stadium!
   Anyone curious about the website, or any particular driver, series, track or organization that make up our roster of researched subjects can access our site at:   https://sites.google.com/site/arradocumentingracinghistory/home

  Please feel free to visit our sister websites.  ARRA associate members Dennis Clapperton and Jeff Zimmerman do a great job in cataloging Northeast racing stats at their website RaceStatCentral and that can be accessed at: https://nemodfacts.racestatcentral.com/        Well known AARN columnist and ARRA historian Guy Smith also has an ongoing website detailing various views of racing….broken up into two sections – “Roaming The Raceways” and “TrackChaser”….those ARRA sister websitsites can be found at:   http://www.roamingtheraceways.com/default.html
 

 

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Oh yeah.....this Winter will find ARRA historian Bill Hanna undertaking a Will Cagle career research!

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It's too addicting. You need to add a surgeon general's warning.

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15 hours ago, GasketCase said:

It's too addicting. You need to add a surgeon general's warning.

We have been told! :)

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I was looking through Billy Pauch's win list, I didn't see his prelim win listed from the 1996 Chili Bowl. He won the Thursday night program, putting him on the pole for the Championship feature on Saturday night.

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4 hours ago, jumper12a said:

I was looking through Billy Pauch's win list, I didn't see his prelim win listed from the 1996 Chili Bowl. He won the Thursday night program, putting him on the pole for the Championship feature on Saturday night.

Jumper....you have stumbled upon a sore spot with me.  I fully admit that I have been a Billy Pauch fan for his entire career.  The deal with our not including that on his win list is the fact that that preliminary event was more or less a "qualifier" event and wasn't open to anyone interested in qualifying for the Chili Bowl.  One of the criteria for counting a win as a win is that the event has to be open to any competitor in that division to try to qualify for the main event.  Fight For The Rail has tried to convince me for years and years that the event should be included.  However, if you go to the page on our website that details our criteria....you will see that the Chili Bowl prelim would fall outside of our parameters.  Listen, I would love to see that win on his record....but.....        https://sites.google.com/site/arradocumentingracinghistory/this-is-arra

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17 minutes ago, HowieTheHat said:

Jumper....you have stumbled upon a sore spot with me.  I fully admit that I have been a Billy Pauch fan for his entire career.  The deal with our not including that on his win list is the fact that that preliminary event was more or less a "qualifier" event and wasn't open to anyone interested in qualifying for the Chili Bowl.  One of the criteria for counting a win as a win is that the event has to be open to any competitor in that division to try to qualify for the main event.  Fight For The Rail has tried to convince me for years and years that the event should be included.  However, if you go to the page on our website that details our criteria....you will see that the Chili Bowl prelim would fall outside of our parameters.  Listen, I would love to see that win on his record....but.....        https://sites.google.com/site/arradocumentingracinghistory/this-is-arra

I knew that would be your response, but it's still nice to see.  I'm probably with the majority that thinks it should count, but it doesn't fit your criteria.  

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30 minutes ago, HowieTheHat said:

Jumper....you have stumbled upon a sore spot with me.  I fully admit that I have been a Billy Pauch fan for his entire career.  The deal with our not including that on his win list is the fact that that preliminary event was more or less a "qualifier" event and wasn't open to anyone interested in qualifying for the Chili Bowl.  One of the criteria for counting a win as a win is that the event has to be open to any competitor in that division to try to qualify for the main event.  Fight For The Rail has tried to convince me for years and years that the event should be included.  However, if you go to the page on our website that details our criteria....you will see that the Chili Bowl prelim would fall outside of our parameters.  Listen, I would love to see that win on his record....but.....        https://sites.google.com/site/arradocumentingracinghistory/this-is-arra

I understand your criteria. I’m not quite understanding the explanation to the reason for not including that win. The Chili Bowl is most certainly open to all competitors. It’s no secret that this one division event gets more competitors than any other event. Anyone, including you or myself, can enter & compete in it. I’m not sure where the thought that the event wasn’t open to anyone came from? That’s not the case. This race is the exact opposite of that.

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38 minutes ago, HowieTheHat said:

Jumper....you have stumbled upon a sore spot with me.  I fully admit that I have been a Billy Pauch fan for his entire career.  The deal with our not including that on his win list is the fact that that preliminary event was more or less a "qualifier" event and wasn't open to anyone interested in qualifying for the Chili Bowl.  One of the criteria for counting a win as a win is that the event has to be open to any competitor in that division to try to qualify for the main event.  Fight For The Rail has tried to convince me for years and years that the event should be included.  However, if you go to the page on our website that details our criteria....you will see that the Chili Bowl prelim would fall outside of our parameters.  Listen, I would love to see that win on his record....but.....        https://sites.google.com/site/arradocumentingracinghistory/this-is-arra

This can be a topic that can be open for debate for a long time....  But where do you draw the line?  You have so many scenarios that can come to play.

A.) Chili Bowl like Baumes mentions.

B.) Knoxville Nationals, under the criteria if you win Wed/Thurs/Fri it doesn't count as well.

C.) What about a track like Fulton that gets a big field of sportsman cars and splits it into 2 or 3 features.  The drivers get full points and count as an official Feature winner.  But....

What's the answer?  You got me.  I'm not saying it's wrong and I'm not saying it's right.  Remember for years the Outlaws didn't count preliminary features as actual feature event wins (even though open to all competitors).  

My two cents is that they should be counted.  They aren't "invitationals" where certain competitors are running a particular race as an invite only.  These are events where fields are just simply split because of size or amount of entries.  

I do want to say thanks so much to Fred and gang for this effort and website.  I am on it so often and it truly gives you a detailed report on a driver's or track's history.  Thanks again!!!

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22 hours ago, HowieTheHat said:

Oh yeah.....this Winter will find ARRA historian Bill Hanna undertaking a Will Cagle career research!

I've got a feeling that Hanna is going to need a lot longer than a winter to conquer Will Cagle's win list and believe it can never be accurate because he raced in many divisions and a ton of tracks up and down the east coast.

Tell Bill I wish him luck and look forward to his results.

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1 hour ago, jumper12a said:

I understand your criteria. I’m not quite understanding the explanation to the reason for not including that win. The Chili Bowl is most certainly open to all competitors. It’s no secret that this one division event gets more competitors than any other event. Anyone, including you or myself, can enter & compete in it. I’m not sure where the thought that the event wasn’t open to anyone came from? That’s not the case. This race is the exact opposite of that.

Go get him, Jumper. LOL  I have had a discussion with Howie  quite often when it comes to that specific race. A prelim at the Chili Bowl or the Knoxville Nationals s not the same thing as a winner's classic or something along those lines. 😋 

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1 hour ago, jumper12a said:

I understand your criteria. I’m not quite understanding the explanation to the reason for not including that win. The Chili Bowl is most certainly open to all competitors. It’s no secret that this one division event gets more competitors than any other event. Anyone, including you or myself, can enter & compete in it. I’m not sure where the thought that the event wasn’t open to anyone came from? That’s not the case. This race is the exact opposite of that.

Howie's argument is that it is a split field on the preliminary nights, For example, Kyle Larson or Christopher Bell are not eligible to run every preliminary night program. 

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I understand the argument of “non-qualifers” races not counting towards your win list because that represents the lesser half of the total field. 

Prelim nights should absolutely count for the Chili Bowl and Knoxville Nationals because the quality of the fields is super high. 

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18 minutes ago, con7 said:

I understand the argument of “non-qualifers” races not counting towards your win list because that represents the lesser half of the total field. 

Prelim nights should absolutely count for the Chili Bowl and Knoxville Nationals because the quality of the fields is super high. 

What's next.....only full fields should count?

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9 hours ago, FightForTheRail said:

Howie's argument is that it is a split field on the preliminary nights, For example, Kyle Larson or Christopher Bell are not eligible to run every preliminary night program. 

FFTR hits the nail on the head because the two of us have had, as he mentions...lots of discussions on this very subject.  The fact is that we are not talking about the Chili  Bowl event itself, but one of its qualifying events.  No driver can compete in each qualifying event....only their particular qualifying event.....thus, each qualifying event is NOT open to ALL drivers.  Thus, it does not meet our criteria.  This particular criteria usually will not cause such a problem...but in this instance...it does.  I will say that yes, as Dean Reynolds states....the Outlaws once did not count Pre lim events....but now do.  That in mind....it might be possible that our guys here at ARRA could maybe re-open our discussions about including such instances.....such as Billy's pre-lim Chili Bowl win as an official feature win.

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It can be a tricky situation that can be determined many ways.  Here is another.  The former DIRT Week Winners Classic or whatever it was called.  Win a qualifying event on the DIRT Tour any you are in this event.  Obviously, this event isn't open to all competitors.  However, lets look at it another way.  The field for the classic is open only to those drivers who have won a qualifying trail event.  BUT, weren't those qualifying events at each individual track open to all competitors who cared to try to qualify for DIRT week by winning that individual event?  So therefore...to get to the Winners Classic...could you say that because the individual qualifying events WERE open to all competitors...that the Classic was then open to all competitors in a way?  It has made for some long discussions.

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10 hours ago, BobMiller said:

I've got a feeling that Hanna is going to need a lot longer than a winter to conquer Will Cagle's win list and believe it can never be accurate because he raced in many divisions and a ton of tracks up and down the east coast.

Tell Bill I wish him luck and look forward to his results.

Bob....Will himself kept meticulous records of his career...so he says and it is backed up by his wifes say so.  Bill Hanna talked it over with Will this year at Orange County and Will is open to sharing his notes with Bill in his research efforts.  We shall see and like you....I am interested to see the results.

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1 hour ago, HowieTheHat said:

FFTR hits the nail on the head because the two of us have had, as he mentions...lots of discussions on this very subject.  The fact is that we are not talking about the Chili  Bowl event itself, but one of its qualifying events.  No driver can compete in each qualifying event....only their particular qualifying event.....thus, each qualifying event is NOT open to ALL drivers.  Thus, it does not meet our criteria.  This particular criteria usually will not cause such a problem...but in this instance...it does.  I will say that yes, as Dean Reynolds states....the Outlaws once did not count Pre lim events....but now do.  That in mind....it might be possible that our guys here at ARRA could maybe re-open our discussions about including such instances.....such as Billy's pre-lim Chili Bowl win as an official feature win.

Ok, that helps me understand a little better. Having said that, perhaps all people involved should revisit the rules when it pertains to certain races. Maybe there should be an exception made for specific events such as the CB or Knoxville? You ask anyone who's won a Prelim Night at the CB, and Knoxville for that matter, majority would tell you it's one of the biggest, if not the biggest, win of their careers. Especially for those who've won Prelim Nights without winning the Championship feature. Winning one of those races is far more difficult than winning a regular show at your respected weekly track.

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3 hours ago, HowieTheHat said:

Bob....Will himself kept meticulous records of his career...so he says and it is backed up by his wifes say so.  Bill Hanna talked it over with Will this year at Orange County and Will is open to sharing his notes with Bill in his research efforts.  We shall see and like you....I am interested to see the results.

As long as he has the newsprint to back up his notes, I can't wait to see it.

 

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4 hours ago, HowieTheHat said:

Bob....Will himself kept meticulous records of his career...so he says and it is backed up by his wifes say so.  Bill Hanna talked it over with Will this year at Orange County and Will is open to sharing his notes with Bill in his research efforts.  We shall see and like you....I am interested to see the results.

You better take their word for it, or you might get an angry phone call like the Rahmers :sofa:

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5 hours ago, John Williams said:

You better take their word for it, or you might get an angry phone call like the Rahmers :sofa:

John....I have my own personal thoughts on this upcoming project.....but I will keep them to myself.  I will say that I will make use of my Newspapers dot com subscription to "check" dates vs wins.  Just for the hell of it :)     Trust me.....I will be checking up on the stats.  Yep.....don't want another Freddie Rahmer incident.  For those that don't know....Freddie Rahmer called me up and was rather rude.  Lost a lot of respect for him after that phone call.  All stemmed from us not claiming six sportsman division wins for him that he and his wife claims that he had gotten.  We scoured the papers and never found anything on those six wins....and they said they had the information.....just couldn't be bothered to dig it up.  We have run into other situations where drivers didn't agree with what we documented, but that comes with the territory.  Freddie Rahmer will never get the respect from me from here on in though.  

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A quick and funny story.

I used to hit a bunch of the early spring events in PA between Speed Weeks and the NY season got started. I'd meet up with a bunch of my buddies down there and they were all Greg Hodnett fans. It's not fun sitting in the stands with your friends when you are all cheering for the same guy, so I picked Freddie Rahmer to cheer for. Most of the reason was because everyone else hated him. If you ever want to feel uncomfortable, be the only guy in the stands cheering for the number one villain of the PA Posse. And I admit... when on the mic, Rahmer can definitely rub you the wrong way. But then Bruce Ellis can too, so I don't know where to point the finger first.

And here is where it gets funny. I was also (still am) a fan of Sammy Swindell, and NOBODY treats the press as bad as Sammy can. What made me a fan - and I will argue this with anyone - there is nobody more exciting behind the wheel of a sprint car than Sammy Swindell when he's fast. Nobody. I've seen him do wheel stands the entire length of both straights so high that the push bumper scrapes the track. Most guys burp the throttle and get the front end back down. Not Sammy... he rides it out. I've also seen Sammy hit the outside wall so hard that you'd think a part of it was stuck in his nerf bars and he was going to have to retire for the event. Not Sammy. He just mashes his foot to the floor until the car breaks or it blows up, and we've seen that too. Unfortunately, Sammy sometimes takes innocent victims with him and that even makes me mad.

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2 hours ago, BobMiller said:

A quick and funny story.

I used to hit a bunch of the early spring events in PA between Speed Weeks and the NY season got started. I'd meet up with a bunch of my buddies down there and they were all Greg Hodnett fans. It's not fun sitting in the stands with your friends when you are all cheering for the same guy, so I picked Freddie Rahmer to cheer for. Most of the reason was because everyone else hated him. If you ever want to feel uncomfortable, be the only guy in the stands cheering for the number one villain of the PA Posse. And I admit... when on the mic, Rahmer can definitely rub you the wrong way. But then Bruce Ellis can too, so I don't know where to point the finger first.

And here is where it gets funny. I was also (still am) a fan of Sammy Swindell, and NOBODY treats the press as bad as Sammy can. What made me a fan - and I will argue this with anyone - there is nobody more exciting behind the wheel of a sprint car than Sammy Swindell when he's fast. Nobody. I've seen him do wheel stands the entire length of both straights so high that the push bumper scrapes the track. Most guys burp the throttle and get the front end back down. Not Sammy... he rides it out. I've also seen Sammy hit the outside wall so hard that you'd think a part of it was stuck in his nerf bars and he was going to have to retire for the event. Not Sammy. He just mashes his foot to the floor until the car breaks or it blows up, and we've seen that too. Unfortunately, Sammy sometimes takes innocent victims with him and that even makes me mad.

And sometimes he hits trucks!

 

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That was insane. Hopefully the push truck driver never pushed again.

 

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