Jump to content



Sign in to follow this  
ferg3298

Dirtcar new rule

Recommended Posts

Advancing from what we have now to a modern 4 link setup is still a huge jump.  There would be a lot more additions and changes needed to the chassis where for the most part all of the left side stuff has been pretty simple additions.  Notice the rules also mention stifling the torque arm design...that would be another component of it.  (Although i think it'd be tough to do much differently since we wouldn't be allowed to run a 5th coil shock nor have a place to put it)

The left side panhard / coil over design still isn't fully refined/perfected either.  Obviously BRP has a solid package but the advancement isn't finished yet.  Racers' knowledge on it is still pretty far off too.  Eventually we'll complete the cycle and it'll be like it always has been..the best prepared will succeed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willy Decker Sr used left side panhard stuff in the late 90s early 2000s and won some races at Fulton on it.he still has it hanging in his shop. He fabricated it himself. Then it went away. Now it’s coming back. Everything in race is always a full circle sooner or later the open sportsman motors will be back. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Eagleonemotorsports said:

Devin

here is a fair question I think. What do you consider a lot more??

Because other than the birdcages you need 2 extra radius rods. And put some slugs in the frame.

so I’d say your within less than $500 difference 

While you can probably make it happen for not a ton of money the jump is going to cost a lot in the long run. Talking to some late model guys they spend 1000 on birdcages alone. Then you're looking at a complete floor and torque arm change for the car and you're probably looking at big changes to the rest of the frame. Basically I don't know what it would cost but I would guess it may make entire chassis obsolete. Someone also brought up a good point on motors. When we hook the cars up more the motors matter more so that 13.5k w16 now gets smoked by the 25k smallblock. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A old man once told me, you don't bring nothing with you and you don't take nothing back. Ever seen a hearse hauling a u haul? 😀

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There’s no question that the progression to a 4 link would cost money, the point is where was this thought process when a competitive big block went from 20k to 50k, when shocks went from 150 to 400 bucks a piece, when a crate motor went from being shipped to being blueprinted? When stock dirtlegal spec heads are 2400 but everyone spends double from Ron’s Port work or HVH for an illegal 30hp. When tire prep went from 2 hrs a week to 8 and the tire bill tripled per season? Or when fuel doubled in cost and is way more than equivalent fuel from competing companies? Where was helping the racer when a dirt license jumped in price for drivers and crews, but sanctioned tracks no longer are expected to discount pit admission?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

when a crate motor went from being shipped to being blueprinted? 

OK, I didn't want to derail the topic but since you guys keep bringing this up...who's doing this?  Gimme some names.  I've seen plenty of top dog sportsman guys sell their used engines recently and they're GM bottle cap sealed still, not DIRTcar sealed.  I understand that somewhere along the line "repair" became "rebuild" and those engines got DIRTcar sealed but I'm not aware of any blueprinting of new engines and getting resealed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Devin

who said anything about changing the floor and torque arm ? I’m talking about 4 link suspension not torque arm. What about when they came out with rubber floor cars? That was an added expense that made old frames need reworking or being replaced. 

What about when they came up with left side panhard it increased traction and demand on motor. Did anyone complain. 

The teams that have the resources will keep spending money to get an edge and your not going to stop it.if you limit what people can do the ones that perfect it will have an advantage. 

Have a weight limit, tire size, the body rules we have an let’s go racing. 

People say racing has come so far, when you have night a Sportman car is within a tenth of a $50,000 big block what’s that really tell you?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, matt_s86 said:

OK, I didn't want to derail the topic but since you guys keep bringing this up...who's doing this?  Gimme some names.  I've seen plenty of top dog sportsman guys sell their used engines recently and they're GM bottle cap sealed still, not DIRTcar sealed.  I understand that somewhere along the line "repair" became "rebuild" and those engines got DIRTcar sealed but I'm not aware of any blueprinting of new engines and getting resealed.

Were you asleep this summer when the complete blow up occurred involving dirtcar, Kevlar, and donath? There are a shitload of motors that have been taken apart, everything matched, cylinder heads cut to push compression ratio up etc. The 602 motor from gm for years has been basically a bunch of left over parts thrown together, nothing balanced, different size and weight pistons, balancers marked way off etc. Guys like donath buy a bunch of them, take them apart, match everything, and rebuild. Technically cheated up parts, not necessarily, but what was meant for crate racing? Absolutely not. And that motor is no longer 3800 bucks. Not to mention towards the end of summer, did you miss the overload of donath crates for sale? 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm... the big blowup was about DIRTcar re-sealing engines that had the heads cut "repaired" to the GM specs.  Which was outside the DIRTcar rulebook (which states heads must be replaced if damaged).  But most guys buy new, break in on the dyno, mark TDC on the balancer, set timing and go race.  

And yeah, the rumor has been that they will phase out DIRT sealed engines and go GM sealed only soon.

Whatever tho...everyone winning must be cheating right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think DIRT did the right thing with these rules. With the latest trend towards rear coils, left side rear panard rods, and short radius rods, teams had to spend 1,000's of dollars to keep up. And in the end most modified pit areas are filled with cars that have basically the same rear suspension again, but the teams have less money in their pockets. DIRT actually had the foresight to see what was coming next and decided to put an end to it. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The guys winning in the cny area were certainly in the middle of the blowup, or atleast are using engines from the guy in the middle of it. It started because dirtcar head tech official (mark Hitchcock), sent seals to the engine shops without actually inspecting any of those engines. In his slight defense he’s basically a one man band with a lot of engines to seal all over. But, some were caught with “repaired” heads, aka cut heads for performance purposes, and compression ratio came into play. These engines did not come from gm and get tuned and then sold, they were rebuilt. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, gary tomkins said:

I think DIRT did the right thing with these rules. With the latest trend towards rear coils, left side rear panard rods, and short radius rods, teams had to spend 1,000's of dollars to keep up. And in the end most modified pit areas are filled with cars that have basically the same rear suspension again, but the teams have less money in their pockets. DIRT actually had the foresight to see what was coming next and decided to put an end to it. 

So it’s a good thing that all modified teams have the same cars and suspension, but 25% have 55k winning engines and the other just fill the field?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That should entice a lot of people to jump into those waters, come play with the big boys, where you cannot out smart us, can’t outdrive us and damn sure can’t out spend us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gary, with all due respect your the prime example of why rules like this are no good. Your one of the most talented drivers to ever strap into one of these cars. Every time you have had the opportunity to drive top notch stuff equivalent to your peers your winning a lot of races and are one of the handful of guys to beat anywhere. When the money isn’t there and the equipment isn’t at that level, you get beat often by guys with half of your talent. It’s going to be hard for anyone to beat money, and in time the money rises to the top anyway, but making rules to stop ingenuity that may atleast partially level the playing field for a bit is ludicrous imo. Not to mention, the more suspension systems advance, the less need there will be to constantly buy chassis that as of now are part of the suspension. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

So it’s a good thing that all modified teams have the same cars and suspension, but 25% have 55k winning engines and the other just fill the field?

 

2 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

That should entice a lot of people to jump into those waters, come play with the big boys, where you cannot out smart us, can’t outdrive us and damn sure can’t out spend us.

 

How long do you think it would take, if somebody in Central New York came up with something better, to have it available to everyone?? It took about three years total from the time the latest craze started by some guys in Delaware until everybody could buy the parts and go faster. And now teams have to spend a bunch of money if they want to keep up. And like I said, pretty much all of the modified teams are running some version of it, so what has been gained, other than money in the parts manufacturers pockets?? What good what it be to turn the modifieds into a "late model lite" anyway?? Spending a lot of money the change the rear suspension AGAIN would only be advantages to the big teams and the gap between the haves and have nots would only grow bigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see your point, but just save everyone the time and money now, have a spec car built, spec motor built, spec revalveable shocks and tires.....stamp dirtcar on it, sell the whole deal for 50k a piece and it saves everyone time and money. To me that 3 years that Ryan watt kicked the shit out of everyone with basically something he built, the year Rumley designed a piece of scrap metal into a industry changing part, all the years Bob McCreadie flat out outsmarted everyone, the brilliance of nascar teams for the first 40 years of nascar, is what racing is all about. People say hard work is the equalizer to talent and money, kind of, most teams work hard, ingenuity combats wallets, the late model/ump style modified evolves constantly because there is room for growth. Maybe that’s why there are thousands of those cars to hundreds of ours. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I told Dirt 5 years ago how to fix the problem with the crate motors but they don’t seem to worry because the numbers are there.  There should be no fixing or repairing of motors. The way it comes from GM is it . You buy the motor through Dirt and ever motor is broken in and Dynoed. Numbers are recorded for later protest. Each track has a motor on hand to give a competitor that is protested or teched. Motor is taken to Dirt Dyno and rechecked to validate numbers. If a motor is in need of repair it can be traded in for a credit to purchase a new motor. Motor is repaired and sold to a street rodder or sold as is but never to be raced again on Dirt because block will be marked to designate it’s not legal for competition. You put the rule out now and starting in 2021 those would be the only motors legal for competition. Let’s be honest if you have to repair a motor it’s $1000 if not more. Granted I understand a new motor would be more but it eliminates tech issues 99.9 and puts everyone on a leveler playing field. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Eagleonemotorsports said:

I told Dirt 5 years ago how to fix the problem with the crate motors but they don’t seem to worry because the numbers are there.  There should be no fixing or repairing of motors. The way it comes from GM is it . You buy the motor through Dirt and ever motor is broken in and Dynoed. Numbers are recorded for later protest. Each track has a motor on hand to give a competitor that is protested or teched. Motor is taken to Dirt Dyno and rechecked to validate numbers. If a motor is in need of repair it can be traded in for a credit to purchase a new motor. Motor is repaired and sold to a street rodder or sold as is but never to be raced again on Dirt because block will be marked to designate it’s not legal for competition. You put the rule out now and starting in 2021 those would be the only motors legal for competition. Let’s be honest if you have to repair a motor it’s $1000 if not more. Granted I understand a new motor would be more but it eliminates tech issues 99.9 and puts everyone on a leveler playing field. 

100% correct, 1 unbiased engine dyno. No engine shops, no rebuilding. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love when people say they “told Dirt” this, “I told Dirt” that lol. It always makes me laugh. Being a ice cold ML drinker, I once told Anhueser-Busch to make Bud Light taste like Miller Lite, it didn’t pan out in my favor.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

Gary, with all due respect your the prime example of why rules like this are no good. Your one of the most talented drivers to ever strap into one of these cars. Every time you have had the opportunity to drive top notch stuff equivalent to your peers your winning a lot of races and are one of the handful of guys to beat anywhere. When the money isn’t there and the equipment isn’t at that level, you get beat often by guys with half of your talent. It’s going to be hard for anyone to beat money, and in time the money rises to the top anyway, but making rules to stop ingenuity that may atleast partially level the playing field for a bit is ludicrous imo. Not to mention, the more suspension systems advance, the less need there will be to constantly buy chassis that as of now are part of the suspension. 

I appreciate the compliment! That being said, every time I drove for a team that wanted to try something "different", I would say to them, do you have a budget to do testing or a lot of racing? Are you willing to spend many nights not getting good results because what you thought might work didn't, at least on that particular night. Do you have time to be in the shop changing stuff along with the usual maintenance that's required with a modified? Very rarely has anyone ever come up with something over night and immediately were fast. It takes a lot of time, money and patience.  

I've been a part of some teams that have tried different stuff. We were trying coils on the rear on that famous night that Danny ran our other car (it wasn't a back up car) at Rolling Wheels and won. We actually did win with that coil car, but decided it wasn't worth the time and effort then to try and develop it further because our other car was running really good.

We also had the first rubber floor car, that one turned out pretty good though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I made the statement many years ago that Dirtcar needs to have ALL motors sealed by GM & if they need to be repaired or rebuilt, it needs to be done by a motor builder who has put up a $5000 dollar bond for the privilege of repairing, rebuilding & resealing the motors with their own seals.....if the motor is found to be illegal the builder whose seals are on the motor will lose his bond money......How many builders do you know that would put his seal on an illegal motor & chance losing 5Gs????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, gary tomkins said:

I appreciate the compliment! That being said, every time I drove for a team that wanted to try something "different", I would say to them, do you have a budget to do testing or a lot of racing? Are you willing to spend many nights not getting good results because what you thought might work didn't, at least on that particular night. Do you have time to be in the shop changing stuff along with the usual maintenance that's required with a modified? Very rarely has anyone ever come up with something over night and immediately were fast. It takes a lot of time, money and patience.  

I've been a part of some teams that have tried different stuff. We were trying coils on the rear on that famous night that Danny ran our other car (it wasn't a back up car) at Rolling Wheels and won. We actually did win with that coil car, but decided it wasn't worth the time and effort then to try and develop it further because our other car was running really good.

We also had the first rubber floor car, that one turned out pretty good though.

I understand completely, but in most situations a few teams do most of the work, most of the r&d and then others copy. I think dirt modifieds had been quite stagnant for quite awhile, and now a bunch of new ideas, some good some not are being tried. It’s great, it brings something new(or old) back to relevance. It also might spur people into doing some stuff on their own rather than wish they could buy it. Innovation is what racing was created on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

jumper

Maybe the bigger LOL is guys like you making comments when you probably know little about the talks I’m talking about. And if you look at the problems that are happening if they did a plan like I proposed most of the issues would have gone away,  racers would money ahead, and the playing field would be leveler. 

But ive learned that  fixing problems isn’t the thing everyone looks for , some would rather be in control, make money , and that sad.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Racer, 

sad part is lots:( what is $5000 to a guy to buy and advantage? Engine builder would say they must have tampered with it. Owner would say I didn’t touch it. 

Think about this Dirt could have their own Dyno pay a guy $45,000 a year to run it. Each team would pay $400 to Dyno a motor in the price they purchase the motor from dirt for. I would say between all classes 150 motors a year would be a far number after initial year so the cost would support the in house tech system that would be in place with having 1 Dyno checking ALL motors!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
















×