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Dirtcar new rule

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On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 4:12 PM, NODOORS said:

If you really want Racing to go back to the way it used to be where a Driver that had the skills and talent to win on any night with an EQUAL Playing field then I suggest this.

 

Every team that is registered with DIRT, come up with a budget to run that car in all races for the season and list how much money is allocated to Your Engine program, your Suspension Program, Your tire program, and your Chassis program Et. Etc.

Dirt then looks at each budget of each car and comes up with an average cost breakdown for each program that the teams have.  Then they make a Salary Type Cap for each car to spend this much money for each program.  The way to handle that money is that, each team has to put that amount of money into a separate account that can be monitored by DIRT for every car in the DIRT program. 

This will make every team and car equal as far as the MONEY SPENDING Goes.  So now you have the same budget for every team and it is monitored by DIRT, this will put the high dollar teams on the same playing field as the low dollar teams and then the Drivers Skill Sets will determine who is the best.  No one can say that they beat me because they had better Motor or better suspension bah blah blah.  

I know this isn't perfect, but some how some way this sport we love has to be regulated money wise to make it more competitive for everyone.  There are ways to do this and keep it fair so teams DO NOT use any monies that aren't accounted for.  Manufacturers Motor Builders and so on all have to be on board and have to report to DIRT the money spent for each team and car.

 

That's my 2 cents and No its not perfect and things would have to be worked out to keep this fair, but something has to be done

Half these teams don't know where th money comes from anyways. Kinda hard to have them put it in upfront

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12 hours ago, 80K said:

Should be 3link sportsman only and mods whatever you want to follow the A-B mod model of most classes. 

I'll admit I didn't read this entire thing, but this is very sensible.  

But I've said this before about so many of these tech/rules arguments:  A lot of racers believe they deserve a shot to win just because they show up.  And they want the rules to ensure that.  And I'm sorry dudes, that's just not true.  It's not true at any level of racing.    

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On 12/21/2019 at 12:07 PM, jumper12a said:

Scott, my name is attached to every post of mine. It’s been there for years.

Guess I missed this one as well

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4 hours ago, luke81 said:

I'll admit I didn't read this entire thing, but this is very sensible.  

But I've said this before about so many of these tech/rules arguments:  A lot of racers believe they deserve a shot to win just because they show up.  And they want the rules to ensure that.  And I'm sorry dudes, that's just not true.  It's not true at any level of racing.    

No new rules for Deyo's series or Fonda so what's problem ? And if BSB ( Pro Power )  Ford $48,000 prices  and up are to high for Fonda or others  just keep giving w/16 and spec 358 more weight breaks  It's 250 lb now Go to 300 to 350 lbs and problems over Simple  But racers don't like simple non drama solutions .....Someone ( car builder ) has DIRT's ear that's why BS is going on  I would guess......Since Bicknell sells the cars( hundreds ) Facebook shows 10 cars in one 53 ft trailer being shipped  and owners ( son ) wins  all big races IDK why they haven't lobbied hard for Wegner w/16 and new spec Wegner  LS 427 more weight breaks  since they also are only ones selling .They have Cars, Tires ,Parts ,Motors and Purses locked up now ......Similar to ( Sheppard ) Rocket house car in WOO series LM..$600,000 2019  total winnings ?...crumbs left......They have all feedback from several hundred cars Feed info to  computer and Automated  CNC fleet of machines and  they are ready to shop vac money from drivers , owners and tracks ......This is not the old days no more.....When mother ship shows up with Storm Troopers best load up .....💀

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13 minutes ago, old racer said:

When mother ship shows up with Storm Troopers best load up .....

 

tinfoil-hat-and-tinfoil-cat.jpg

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2 hours ago, old racer said:

No new rules for Deyo's series or Fonda so what's problem ? And if BSB ( Pro Power )  Ford $48,000 prices  and up are to high for Fonda or others  just keep giving w/16 and spec 358 more weight breaks  It's 250 lb now Go to 300 to 350 lbs and problems over Simple  But racers don't like simple non drama solutions .....Someone ( car builder ) has DIRT's ear that's why BS is going on  I would guess......Since Bicknell sells the cars( hundreds ) Facebook shows 10 cars in one 53 ft trailer being shipped  and owners ( son ) wins  all big races IDK why they haven't lobbied hard for Wegner w/16 and new spec Wegner  LS 427 more weight breaks  since they also are only ones selling .They have Cars, Tires ,Parts ,Motors and Purses locked up now ......Similar to ( Sheppard ) Rocket house car in WOO series LM..$600,000 2019  total winnings ?...crumbs left......They have all feedback from several hundred cars Feed info to  computer and Automated  CNC fleet of machines and  they are ready to shop vac money from drivers , owners and tracks ......This is not the old days no more.....When mother ship shows up with Storm Troopers best load up .....💀

If you knew half of what you think you know, you might actually learn something about modern racing. 

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2 hours ago, old racer said:

No new rules for Deyo's series or Fonda so what's problem ? And if BSB ( Pro Power )  Ford $48,000 prices  and up are to high for Fonda or others  just keep giving w/16 and spec 358 more weight breaks  It's 250 lb now Go to 300 to 350 lbs and problems over Simple  But racers don't like simple non drama solutions .....Someone ( car builder ) has DIRT's ear that's why BS is going on  I would guess......Since Bicknell sells the cars( hundreds ) Facebook shows 10 cars in one 53 ft trailer being shipped  and owners ( son ) wins  all big races IDK why they haven't lobbied hard for Wegner w/16 and new spec Wegner  LS 427 more weight breaks  since they also are only ones selling .They have Cars, Tires ,Parts ,Motors and Purses locked up now ......Similar to ( Sheppard ) Rocket house car in WOO series LM..$600,000 2019  total winnings ?...crumbs left......They have all feedback from several hundred cars Feed info to  computer and Automated  CNC fleet of machines and  they are ready to shop vac money from drivers , owners and tracks ......This is not the old days no more.....When mother ship shows up with Storm Troopers best load up .....💀

Can anyone translate what is going on here for me? 

 

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10 hours ago, floridamod said:

Half these teams don't know where th money comes from anyways. Kinda hard to have them put it in upfront

Deposit what they can no one stated how little they can put in just a cap as to what they can spend.  Like I stated in the previous post ALL the Vendors and contractors would have to be on board and reporting back to DIRT how much each team spent to keep it equal and that can be done

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I say have one motor one motor only. If you want to run a big block then there is only one big block. If you run a 360 sprint car they don’t have 7 different 360 engine combinations. A 410 is a 410 305 is a 305. The north east modified community needs to come together and decide on 1 big block 1 small block and that’s what you can use. The crap with big block vs big small block vs W16 vs the 9 other motor choices is what hurts all north east modified racing. The big boys in the modified racing ( series owners, promoters ect) need to think 5-10 years down the road instead of 3-4 days away. If everyone doesn’t come together to help all of Racing then we mind as well stick a fork in north east modified racing. 

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1 hour ago, NODOORS said:

Deposit what they can no one stated how little they can put in just a cap as to what they can spend.  Like I stated in the previous post ALL the Vendors and contractors would have to be on board and reporting back to DIRT how much each team spent to keep it equal and that can be done

So Fingerlakes, Enders, BTK, Kevlar, Morrison, Pro Power, Mullins, C.C. performance, Bob Bruneau, Moshier, Bicknell, Teo, Troyer, Higfab, Parts distributers across the country from Behrents to Speedway to Scott Jeffrey’s performance to performance bodies, all the tire distributers, shock companies like Fox Shocks, Bilstein, Integra, Penske, all the suspension  companies, wheel companies, ignition companies, Carburetor builders etc. all have to report every sale to competitors in the northeast to dirtcar? Wow I’m sure they will all do that. Not to mention, what should be the rule regarding guys getting sponsorship from certain distributers? Not allowed? All given parts or product counts as money spent? How about everybody working together to make a set of rules that will actually help competitors and come up with a way to actually tech to enforce said rules. It should start with actually asking the racers that are on a budget (the majority, that nobody pays attention to), what would make racing more affordable for them.

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5 hours ago, old racer said:

No new rules for Deyo's series or Fonda so what's problem ? And if BSB ( Pro Power )  Ford $48,000 prices  and up are to high for Fonda or others  just keep giving w/16 and spec 358 more weight breaks  It's 250 lb now Go to 300 to 350 lbs and problems over Simple  But racers don't like simple non drama solutions .....Someone ( car builder ) has DIRT's ear that's why BS is going on  I would guess......Since Bicknell sells the cars( hundreds ) Facebook shows 10 cars in one 53 ft trailer being shipped  and owners ( son ) wins  all big races IDK why they haven't lobbied hard for Wegner w/16 and new spec Wegner  LS 427 more weight breaks  since they also are only ones selling .They have Cars, Tires ,Parts ,Motors and Purses locked up now ......Similar to ( Sheppard ) Rocket house car in WOO series LM..$600,000 2019  total winnings ?...crumbs left......They have all feedback from several hundred cars Feed info to  computer and Automated  CNC fleet of machines and  they are ready to shop vac money from drivers , owners and tracks ......This is not the old days no more.....When mother ship shows up with Storm Troopers best load up .....💀

😳

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51 minutes ago, WMR Racing said:

I say have one motor one motor only. If you want to run a big block then there is only one big block. If you run a 360 sprint car they don’t have 7 different 360 engine combinations. A 410 is a 410 305 is a 305. The north east modified community needs to come together and decide on 1 big block 1 small block and that’s what you can use. The crap with big block vs big small block vs W16 vs the 9 other motor choices is what hurts all north east modified racing. The big boys in the modified racing ( series owners, promoters ect) need to think 5-10 years down the road instead of 3-4 days away. If everyone doesn’t come together to help all of Racing then we mind as well stick a fork in north east modified racing. 

Easiest way to simplify all that would be open steel motor at a standard weight (2450?). 

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38 minutes ago, Josh Bayko said:

Easiest way to simplify all that would be open steel motor at a standard weight (2450?). 

Correct 

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10 hours ago, Josh Bayko said:

Easiest way to simplify all that would be open steel motor at a standard weight (2450?). 

The appeal of that idea is simplicity ... but I think it would mean that it would end up making every motor out there not competitive. Am I correct in thinking this? 

Late Models have an open motor rule and the division is basically mostly aluminum 410s as I understand it.

So wouldn't Modifieds end up being steel block 410s as the power plant of choice, meaning both the current big block and 358 motors are both mothballed?

I agree in principle, I really think the Northeast needs 1 Modified class and 1 affordable Sportsman class  (which this class is already getting well out of hand with specially built motors, etc.)... but the fact is,  the Big Block vs. 358 split is tough to overcome.

Big block car counts are not great because they are so expensive. So I don't know if an open motor rule is an improvement so much as it just makes things simpler. Good luck trying to tell the 358 areas that they have to go to open motors -- that would be a tough sell.

358 tracks: Granby, Drummond/RPM, Cornwall, Brockville, Can-Am, Mohawk, Fulton, Woodhull, Randsomville, Merritville, Grandview, Big Diamon 

Big Block: Brewerton, Canandaigua, Fonda, Lebanon Valley, Albany-Saratoga, OCFS, Accord, New Egypt, Bridgeport, Delaware, Sharon, Lernerville, Outlaw (Dundee), 5 Mile Point, Thunder Mountain, Afton, PennCan

Remember, the 358s were originally 320s, which were started as a Sportsman class until they let the motors get so out of control and costly that they needed a Sportsman class as the 320/358s got too expensive.

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@BillSmith if DIRTcar modified racing ever went that route the 358 class would probably have to remain it's own class in order to keep a somewhat cost-controlled option.  Then open small block would replace big block.  (Short Track Super Series already is this model...open rules)  

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1 hour ago, BillSmith said:

The appeal of that idea is simplicity ... but I think it would mean that it would end up making every motor out there not competitive. Am I correct in thinking this? 

Late Models have an open motor rule and the division is basically mostly aluminum 410s as I understand it.

So wouldn't Modifieds end up being steel block 410s as the power plant of choice, meaning both the current big block and 358 motors are both mothballed?

I agree in principle, I really think the Northeast needs 1 Modified class and 1 affordable Sportsman class  (which this class is already getting well out of hand with specially built motors, etc.)... but the fact is,  the Big Block vs. 358 split is tough to overcome.

Big block car counts are not great because they are so expensive. So I don't know if an open motor rule is an improvement so much as it just makes things simpler. Good luck trying to tell the 358 areas that they have to go to open motors -- that would be a tough sell.

358 tracks: Granby, Drummond/RPM, Cornwall, Brockville, Can-Am, Mohawk, Fulton, Woodhull, Randsomville, Merritville, Grandview, Big Diamon 

Big Block: Brewerton, Canandaigua, Fonda, Lebanon Valley, Albany-Saratoga, OCFS, Accord, New Egypt, Bridgeport, Delaware, Sharon, Lernerville, Outlaw (Dundee), 5 Mile Point, Thunder Mountain, Afton, PennCan

Remember, the 358s were originally 320s, which were started as a Sportsman class until they let the motors get so out of control and costly that they needed a Sportsman class as the 320/358s got too expensive.

Open late model motors are more like 430-460 cubes on an aluminum small block platform. SSTS motors are similar, but are steel, but they gave different weights for all the different motor options. 
 

 

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A steel small block 430 c.i. Max, with 23 degree cylinder heads, will beat a big block as much as a big block beats it, and can be built / bought for half, leave the spec 358s alone but actually tech, and allow the modified class to be either. Cylinder heads and block lightening is where a ton of the money goes, both could be or could’ve been solved years ago. 23 degree big block heads, and 23 degree small block heads keep costs relatively in check.

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Only need to classes of mods. The 602 sportsman and then the modifieds. Thats it. The division that goes on in this regional class is borderline window licking insanity. 602 sportsman for beginners and mods for everyone else.  Run a bb, 358, 427, 305, 318, 383 who gives a shit. Its sad you have a small following that think bbs sound better so that makes better racing. Not true. Bb costs are prohibitive and nobody runs them nationwide for the most part. Time to move the dinosaurs from the past and allow aluminum blocks, fuel injection and other options. Allow 4 links in the mods only. Go ahead and cry cost of racing all you want but look outsode your region beyond mud turtles. Imca mods survive just fine woth essentially open rules. Late models the same. Wake up. 

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2 hours ago, 80K said:

Time to move the dinosaurs from the past and allow aluminum blocks, fuel injection and other options. Allow 4 links in the mods only. Go ahead and cry cost of racing all you want but look outsode your region beyond mud turtles. Imca mods survive just fine woth essentially open rules. Late models the same. Wake up. 

Making things more expensive just cuz everyone else is doing it will definitely help Northeast racing, absolutely.  🤪 wAkE uP pEoPlE

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On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 8:40 PM, rpm72x said:

So Fingerlakes, Enders, BTK, Kevlar, Morrison, Pro Power, Mullins, C.C. performance, Bob Bruneau, Moshier, Bicknell, Teo, Troyer, Higfab, Parts distributers across the country from Behrents to Speedway to Scott Jeffrey’s performance to performance bodies, all the tire distributers, shock companies like Fox Shocks, Bilstein, Integra, Penske, all the suspension  companies, wheel companies, ignition companies, Carburetor builders etc. all have to report every sale to competitors in the northeast to dirtcar? Wow I’m sure they will all do that. Not to mention, what should be the rule regarding guys getting sponsorship from certain distributers? Not allowed? All given parts or product counts as money spent? How about everybody working together to make a set of rules that will actually help competitors and come up with a way to actually tech to enforce said rules. It should start with actually asking the racers that are on a budget (the majority, that nobody pays attention to), what would make racing more affordable for them.

I hear what you are saying but there is a "RULE" that trumps all rules.  The GOLDEN RULE -- HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULE.  and you know as well as I do that the LOW DOLLAR team is going to get NO SAY and money as usual will rule the day.

 

There have been many many "RULES" set up to "attempt" to get cost under control in all of racing and it never works, I repeat NEVER WORKS.  Putting a Cap on spending is the only way to stop big bucks from winning races. and let lower money team compete.  Nothing else is going to work everything else has been tried and it only ends up being more expensive to compete

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On 1/3/2020 at 12:48 PM, 80K said:

 Imca mods survive just fine woth essentially open rules. Late models the same. Wake up. 

IMCA A Mods are 99% 604 crates.

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1 hour ago, NODOORS said:

I hear what you are saying but there is a "RULE" that trumps all rules.  The GOLDEN RULE -- HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULE.  and you know as well as I do that the LOW DOLLAR team is going to get NO SAY and money as usual will rule the day.

 

There have been many many "RULES" set up to "attempt" to get cost under control in all of racing and it never works, I repeat NEVER WORKS.  Putting a Cap on spending is the only way to stop big bucks from winning races. and let lower money team compete.  Nothing else is going to work everything else has been tried and it only ends up being more expensive to compete

Not totally true.....rules can help when they are actually enforced....but the sanctioning bodies need to be proactive on them.....it’s hard to reign in spending when you’ve allowed it for years....engine rules needed to be implemented long ago....now a lot of smaller teams have spent money they probably didn’t have to keep up....you can’t make what they have obsolete....there is absolutely zero way to control or monitor spending....too many outlets to buy products.....as far as modifieds....big blocks primarily....the only option is coming up with a cheaper option....whether it be the ls deal....or a 23 degree option....give it enough weight break to make it an advantage...and actually TECH them.

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2 hours ago, oilman said:

IMCA A Mods are 99% 604 crates.

They get a weight break and a little spoiler to make them the preferred option. 

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2 hours ago, rpm72x said:

Not totally true.....rules can help when they are actually enforced....but the sanctioning bodies need to be proactive on them.....it’s hard to reign in spending when you’ve allowed it for years....engine rules needed to be implemented long ago....now a lot of smaller teams have spent money they probably didn’t have to keep up....you can’t make what they have obsolete....there is absolutely zero way to control or monitor spending....too many outlets to buy products.....as far as modifieds....big blocks primarily....the only option is coming up with a cheaper option....whether it be the ls deal....or a 23 degree option....give it enough weight break to make it an advantage...and actually TECH them.

I have to disagree, when you have "RULES" teams have in the past and will in the future find ways around the rules.  take NASCAR for instance -- they have been trying for years to slow the cars down with rules and they only get faster.  Another thing is cheating in Stock Car racing " The Best Cheaters Win"  Rules are only as good as the enforcers.  Enforcing rules is NOT what any Racing Clubs do because it cost too much money to do it.

 

Control Costs and you control everything else.  And YES it can be done, everyone has to be on board and If the Vendors don't  report than they get banned from DIRT and no team can use them for anything It isn't as hard as you claim it to be 

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On 1/2/2020 at 3:40 PM, old racer said:

No new rules for Deyo's series or Fonda so what's problem ? And if BSB ( Pro Power )  Ford $48,000 prices  and up are to high for Fonda or others  just keep giving w/16 and spec 358 more weight breaks  It's 250 lb now Go to 300 to 350 lbs and problems over Simple  But racers don't like simple non drama solutions .....Someone ( car builder ) has DIRT's ear that's why BS is going on  I would guess......Since Bicknell sells the cars( hundreds ) Facebook shows 10 cars in one 53 ft trailer being shipped  and owners ( son ) wins  all big races IDK why they haven't lobbied hard for Wegner w/16 and new spec Wegner  LS 427 more weight breaks  since they also are only ones selling .They have Cars, Tires ,Parts ,Motors and Purses locked up now ......Similar to ( Sheppard ) Rocket house car in WOO series LM..$600,000 2019  total winnings ?...crumbs left......They have all feedback from several hundred cars Feed info to  computer and Automated  CNC fleet of machines and  they are ready to shop vac money from drivers , owners and tracks ......This is not the old days no more.....When mother ship shows up with Storm Troopers best load up .....💀

I don't know DICK about all these motor options but it seems to me that this post makes an awful lot of sense. Let them all spend, spend, spend, and just change the weight breaks and that should make some people think again. It sure would make things interesting for the teams that want to "buy" their way to a top 3 finish. Cant we all agree that would "level" the playing field? 

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