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Dirtcar new rule

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1 minute ago, DowntheBackStretch said:

I don't know DICK about all these motor options but it seems to me that this post makes an awful lot of sense. Let them all spend, spend, spend, and just change the weight breaks and that should make some people think again. It sure would make things interesting for the teams that want to "buy" their way to a top 3 finish. Cant we all agree that would "level" the playing field? 

I've wondered for years if the following rules combo would work:

Put the Mods up to 2600 pounds, open motor.

Crate 602s, 2400 pounds, let them run a bigger spoiler. If those breaks don't let them be competitive, let them run wider Sprint-type tires 

604s , same deal, medium spoiler, 2500,  lbs.

Even if they aren't super competitive, I bet some Sportsman guys would move up just to get the bigger paycheck.

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1 hour ago, NODOORS said:

I have to disagree, when you have "RULES" teams have in the past and will in the future find ways around the rules.  take NASCAR for instance -- they have been trying for years to slow the cars down with rules and they only get faster.  Another thing is cheating in Stock Car racing " The Best Cheaters Win"  Rules are only as good as the enforcers.  Enforcing rules is NOT what any Racing Clubs do because it cost too much money to do it.

 

Control Costs and you control everything else.  And YES it can be done, everyone has to be on board and If the Vendors don't  report than they get banned from DIRT and no team can use them for anything It isn't as hard as you claim it to be 

Nascar has its own set of issues....I will agree there....but do you honestly think speedway motors, Mike’s cylinder heads Penske racing shocks, Bilstein shocks, in all reality Jegs or Summit give 2 shits about being “banned from dirtcar”. I can order tons of go fast parts online and the supplier won’t have a clue what, when, Or where I’m using them. It’s an absolutely impossible idea. Create cheaper options, make them an advantage, and tech them. Good Tech is much easier to accomplish than telling all these companies that are a million times bigger than dirtcar to “report sales”. The dirtcar spec 358 is a good cheap baseline engine package, it gets very pricey when heads are cheated, blocks are lightened, super lightweight rotating assemblies are purchased......tech would solve this quickly. 

I do agree, weight breaks could even the field out, but once again you have to tech, if you give a 358 100 pounds and don’t tech, you will have ported spec heads sitting on big cubic inch, give a 602 250 lbs and you will have more of the same with no tech. 

Track owners and sanctioning bodies love these rules because you don’t have to worry much about cheating or bending the rules.....there really are none...but costs have continued to sky rocket. The sportsman class is the only class semi controlled, and look there are hundreds of them. 

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It already is set up that talent goes to the front, whether it's talent in the shop or talent behind the wheel. No matter the combination, it takes a big chunk of money to win often in any class as compared to the rest of that particular class.

There's plenty of teams spending piles of coin and getting mid field results in the SDS races. There's teams with modest budgets getting really good results too.

You can open up the rule book all you want or do the exact opposite and spec every component on the car and you will have the same results you have now.

If the rules are opened up, not long after someone will find the hot set up and all will copy and we'll be pretty much where we are now. Same result with extra spec/cookie cutter cars. Teams will spend wherever they can for a perceived edge.

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59 minutes ago, leakin_fluids said:

It already is set up that talent goes to the front, whether it's talent in the shop or talent behind the wheel. No matter the combination, it takes a big chunk of money to win often in any class as compared to the rest of that particular class.

There's plenty of teams spending piles of coin and getting mid field results in the SDS races. There's teams with modest budgets getting really good results too.

You can open up the rule book all you want or do the exact opposite and spec every component on the car and you will have the same results you have now.

If the rules are opened up, not long after someone will find the hot set up and all will copy and we'll be pretty much where we are now. Same result with extra spec/cookie cutter cars. Teams will spend wherever they can for a perceived edge.

Your correct, but one way you have fields dwindling and the other will help classes grow.

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3 hours ago, rpm72x said:

Nascar has its own set of issues....I will agree there....but do you honestly think speedway motors, Mike’s cylinder heads Penske racing shocks, Bilstein shocks, in all reality Jegs or Summit give 2 shits about being “banned from dirtcar”. I can order tons of go fast parts online and the supplier won’t have a clue what, when, Or where I’m using them. It’s an absolutely impossible idea. Create cheaper options, make them an advantage, and tech them. Good Tech is much easier to accomplish than telling all these companies that are a million times bigger than dirtcar to “report sales”. The dirtcar spec 358 is a good cheap baseline engine package, it gets very pricey when heads are cheated, blocks are lightened, super lightweight rotating assemblies are purchased......tech would solve this quickly. 

I do agree, weight breaks could even the field out, but once again you have to tech, if you give a 358 100 pounds and don’t tech, you will have ported spec heads sitting on big cubic inch, give a 602 250 lbs and you will have more of the same with no tech. 

Track owners and sanctioning bodies love these rules because you don’t have to worry much about cheating or bending the rules.....there really are none...but costs have continued to sky rocket. The sportsman class is the only class semi controlled, and look there are hundreds of them. 

There may or maybe not a few sets of heads funneled through my non racing shop in the past. You’re correct. The suppliers don’t give a shit where the parts go. 

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14 minutes ago, Mike Coleates said:

There may or maybe not a few sets of heads funneled through my non racing shop in the past. You’re correct. The suppliers don’t give a shit where the parts go. 

Exactly, and it’s not really their job to. Just like it’s not an engine builders responsibility to report what somebody bought to a sanctioning body. Or shock company etc. Would never happen or work. Create/come up with cheaper options or weight breaks make the cheapest options a bit of an advantage and enforce the rules. It’s the only way to do it. That’s how they saved the sportsman class 12 or so years ago. 

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18 hours ago, rpm72x said:

Nascar has its own set of issues....I will agree there....but do you honestly think speedway motors, Mike’s cylinder heads Penske racing shocks, Bilstein shocks, in all reality Jegs or Summit give 2 shits about being “banned from dirtcar”. I can order tons of go fast parts online and the supplier won’t have a clue what, when, Or where I’m using them. It’s an absolutely impossible idea. Create cheaper options, make them an advantage, and tech them. Good Tech is much easier to accomplish than telling all these companies that are a million times bigger than dirtcar to “report sales”. The dirtcar spec 358 is a good cheap baseline engine package, it gets very pricey when heads are cheated, blocks are lightened, super lightweight rotating assemblies are purchased......tech would solve this quickly. 

I do agree, weight breaks could even the field out, but once again you have to tech, if you give a 358 100 pounds and don’t tech, you will have ported spec heads sitting on big cubic inch, give a 602 250 lbs and you will have more of the same with no tech. 

Track owners and sanctioning bodies love these rules because you don’t have to worry much about cheating or bending the rules.....there really are none...but costs have continued to sky rocket. The sportsman class is the only class semi controlled, and look there are hundreds of them. 

I really don't understand why you think the Vendors wont comply, I think they would if they wanted to make money.  But, I will go with it,  Have all parts bought go through the Chassis manufacturers then and all parts must be Serialized to that car or owner.  If sold as used then the Serial Number goes to the New owner and DIRT keep all serial numbers for all cars.  This isn't rocket Science and not as hard as you claim.

The NFL has had a Salary Cap for over 20 years. They did it to keep teams competitive and it worked, why couldn't DIRT do the Same.

Back in the 70s and early 80s a Back Yard mechanic could build a car and be competitive.  NOT ANYMORE.  Ever Since the BATMOBILE showed it's head and proved that RULES don't work because the Car was Legal as per the "RULES" and Spent an ungodly amount of money to win 1 race was the day the Modified STOCK Car racing was over.  In Fact he not only did the unimagineable, he managed to Change the Name of the Class of Racing To MODIFIED RACING not Modified STOCK CAR  Racing.  Money be damned Im building and spare no expense Im going to win.

A Cap on Spending can be done and Done easily, the biggest hurdle is getting the guy who will spend 1 million to win a season to make 500,000.  He wont be able to BUY his championship anymore and will now be competitive with the guy who spent 50,000.  How can this be, we cant allow this.  YES WE CAN

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27 minutes ago, NODOORS said:

I really don't understand why you think the Vendors wont comply, I think they would if they wanted to make money.  But, I will go with it,  Have all parts bought go through the Chassis manufacturers then and all parts must be Serialized to that car or owner.  If sold as used then the Serial Number goes to the New owner and DIRT keep all serial numbers for all cars.  This isn't rocket Science and not as hard as you claim.

The NFL has had a Salary Cap for over 20 years. They did it to keep teams competitive and it worked, why couldn't DIRT do the Same.

Back in the 70s and early 80s a Back Yard mechanic could build a car and be competitive.  NOT ANYMORE.  Ever Since the BATMOBILE showed it's head and proved that RULES don't work because the Car was Legal as per the "RULES" and Spent an ungodly amount of money to win 1 race was the day the Modified STOCK Car racing was over.  In Fact he not only did the unimagineable, he managed to Change the Name of the Class of Racing To MODIFIED RACING not Modified STOCK CAR  Racing.  Money be damned Im building and spare no expense Im going to win.

A Cap on Spending can be done and Done easily, the biggest hurdle is getting the guy who will spend 1 million to win a season to make 500,000.  He wont be able to BUY his championship anymore and will now be competitive with the guy who spent 50,000.  How can this be, we cant allow this.  YES WE CAN

Ok, we can agree to disagree......the nfl has 32 teams and a rather small amount of players....the nfl controls both the players and the teams, so it’s very easy to keep track of what’s being spent. The team owners are making billions off of the nfl product, so of course they will comply. There is nothing you can leverage against vendors on the other side of the country. They are too big to care if they are not supposed to sell parts to a big block team In NY. These vendors have hundreds of competitors.....the nfl has zero. They are not going to lose a sale because you race northeast modifieds and A(probably not all) sanctioning body wants to know how much you charged for the piece. I think your thinking very small in this, there isn't 4 engine builders and 4 car manufacturers that all these teams buy everything through.....there are hundreds. It would never work.

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A cap won’t work friends family sponsors buy parts for drivers all the time. If I buy 10 wheels how are they going to know who I give them to

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1 hour ago, NODOORS said:

I really don't understand why you think the Vendors wont comply, I think they would if they wanted to make money.  But, I will go with it,  Have all parts bought go through the Chassis manufacturers then and all parts must be Serialized to that car or owner.  If sold as used then the Serial Number goes to the New owner and DIRT keep all serial numbers for all cars.  This isn't rocket Science and not as hard as you claim.

The NFL has had a Salary Cap for over 20 years. They did it to keep teams competitive and it worked, why couldn't DIRT do the Same.

Back in the 70s and early 80s a Back Yard mechanic could build a car and be competitive.  NOT ANYMORE.  Ever Since the BATMOBILE showed it's head and proved that RULES don't work because the Car was Legal as per the "RULES" and Spent an ungodly amount of money to win 1 race was the day the Modified STOCK Car racing was over.  In Fact he not only did the unimagineable, he managed to Change the Name of the Class of Racing To MODIFIED RACING not Modified STOCK CAR  Racing.  Money be damned Im building and spare no expense Im going to win.

A Cap on Spending can be done and Done easily, the biggest hurdle is getting the guy who will spend 1 million to win a season to make 500,000.  He wont be able to BUY his championship anymore and will now be competitive with the guy who spent 50,000.  How can this be, we cant allow this.  YES WE CAN

This is hilariously delusional. 

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32 minutes ago, Josh Bayko said:

This is hilariously delusional. 

Nope this concept isn’t as hard as I’m making it....just call every motorsports related company in the country and tell them to report each time a northeast modified racer buys something. 

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39 minutes ago, WMR Racing said:

A cap won’t work friends family sponsors buy parts for drivers all the time. If I buy 10 wheels how are they going to know who I give them to

That’s not how this works.....WELD wheels will not sell you a wheel unless you tell them exactly who is getting the wheel.....that way they can then call dirtcar and give them the cost and serial number that they now started stamping into the modified wheels.....that way whoever got it will have the few hundred bucks spent on them, updated in the new system that dirtcar had to buy, which will be monitored by the whole slew of people dirtcar had to hire to keep track of all 2000 places that sell parts and hundreds of teams that buy them........all because tech was too expensive. 

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18 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

Nope this concept isn’t as hard as I’m making it....just call every motorsports related company in the country and tell them to report each time a northeast modified racer buys something. 

Yeah, I’m sure Integra would love to have to field calls from both a racer and a sanctioning body to sell one shock to some random dude who has never even  had a top ten. They’d also  be super pumped to have to hire a guy specifically to deal with overbearing northeast modified rules. 

Would be even sweeter when Joe 14th place sends his one shock to a guy in Ohio to rebuild the shock to his specs. That shock guy would definitely report how much he charged for the service out of the goodness in his heart. 

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The big complaint is that tracks don't do tech now. So the solution is to have them do more paperwork than a Fortune 500 company? The only one who would win in this is the company that gets the contract for the officially mandated record keeping. :)

~~~

Simpler and more practical option, make a cheap motor option (602 or 604 crate), give them enough breaks (weight, spoiler, bigger tires, etc.) so they are competitive. Just like what IMCA did in their Modified and SportMod classes.

If a $5,000 motor with a 100 lb weight break and $40 of Lexan can beat a $25,000 motor , who's the dummy, the sanctioning body or the guy spending $25,000 on a motor?

If needed, add a claim rule to keep the crate guys honest -- like $1,500 trade or $6,000 buy outright (guy getting claimed gets choice) -- anyone on the grounds can claim a motor (so basically, a guy can get claimed anonymously). Tracks need to have their own crate on site so they can "claim" a motor so they can do thorough tech and give out the "track crate" for the guy getting claimed to use. Lots of people would hate this ... but it would work. And it would teach everyone that it's a dumb idea to put a lot of money into doctoring up a crate motor.

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23 hours ago, NODOORS said:

I have to disagree, when you have "RULES" teams have in the past and will in the future find ways around the rules.  take NASCAR for instance -- they have been trying for years to slow the cars down with rules and they only get faster.  Another thing is cheating in Stock Car racing " The Best Cheaters Win"  Rules are only as good as the enforcers.  Enforcing rules is NOT what any Racing Clubs do because it cost too much money to do it.

 

Control Costs and you control everything else.  And YES it can be done, everyone has to be on board and If the Vendors don't  report than they get banned from DIRT and no team can use them for anything It isn't as hard as you claim it to be 

I held back on commenting on this because I originally I thought you just threw it out there as an idea. Now I see you're really serious that this could actually work.

First, whichever organization implements this (DIRT or Deyo) their following would go down to close to nothing with race teams. And the bookkeeping alone would be enough for anyone to not even want to race. You'd spend so much money on accountants that it would make up for what you could've spent on car parts.  So if Deyo, DIRT, or the teams have to pay for this it's probably going to reflect in higher admission costs for the fans and maybe even the back gate.  Seems like a slippery slope. Less fans. Less money for payouts, less racing. Doesn't seem like anyone is winning.

Second and really more importantly. I think this would actually hurt a smaller team more than it helps them.  Take teams such as Williamson, Sheppard, or Gypsum.  They have parts, tires, and motors that could probably last for another 2 years without spending another dime.  So they get to spend their cap while not really ever needing to spend anything (because they've built their programs over the last 2-3 decades) and the small team doesn't even have the money to spend that would even meet the cap. How did this help the small team? This doesn't even get into situations where a team goes thru all their motors and then someone steps in to let the team borrow a motor to help out.

So who's still further ahead going into the new season.  Yes, the big money team still wins under these rules (if they could be effectively implemented).

On that note, I think your idea is good just next to impossible to cover every scenario and implement every aspect and financial move of every team.

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Every team from the smallest to the largest would literally roll over laughing if this was implemented, then they would all go race elsewhere. Tracks would jump ship immediately and the sanctioning body who attempted to implement this would be out of business within 24 hrs if they didn’t throw the idea away within 5 minutes of presenting it. 

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8 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

Every team from the smallest to the largest would literally roll over laughing if this was implemented, then they would all go race elsewhere. Tracks would jump ship immediately and the sanctioning body who attempted to implement this would be out of business within 24 hrs if they didn’t throw the idea away within 5 minutes of presenting it. 

Tell that to all the Racing Club that Shut Down because the Owners of the Cars could not keep up with the costs to be competitive.  The latest one being ARDC, the tried to real in costs and it was still way to much money.  35,000 to 58,000 just for a Midget 4cyl motor.  People got fed up and said fuck it and bought a Mini Sprint or a 305 sprint Car.  Even USAC and their "affordable" Rules package couldn't Save ARDC.  yae they still have the USAC Eastern Storm but that is it there are only like 3 or 4 Midget teams left in NY NJ and PA that may race the Eastern Storm. 

If costs aren't controlled there will be no more race teams .  I see and have seen the same thing happening to Dirt Modified racing.  Sooner or later the average money teams are going to bail out because they cant keep it going and be competitive.  It is going to happen a lot faster than people want to admit too.  I have seen it first hand, I don't want to see it happen again

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3 minutes ago, NODOORS said:

Tell that to all the Racing Club that Shut Down because the Owners of the Cars could not keep up with the costs to be competitive.  The latest one being ARDC, the tried to real in costs and it was still way to much money.  35,000 to 58,000 just for a Midget 4cyl motor.  People got fed up and said fuck it and bought a Mini Sprint or a 305 sprint Car.  Even USAC and their "affordable" Rules package couldn't Save ARDC.  yae they still have the USAC Eastern Storm but that is it there are only like 3 or 4 Midget teams left in NY NJ and PA that may race the Eastern Storm. 

If costs aren't controlled there will be no more race teams .  I see and have seen the same thing happening to Dirt Modified racing.  Sooner or later the average money teams are going to bail out because they cant keep it going and be competitive.  It is going to happen a lot faster than people want to admit too.  I have seen it first hand, I don't want to see it happen again

For the record, ARDC still exists. They have a few races scheduled this year. Also, USAC Eastern Storm is 410 Sprint Cars, not Midgets. USAC PA Midget Week is different than Eastern Storm.

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29 minutes ago, NODOORS said:

Tell that to all the Racing Club that Shut Down because the Owners of the Cars could not keep up with the costs to be competitive.  The latest one being ARDC, the tried to real in costs and it was still way to much money.  35,000 to 58,000 just for a Midget 4cyl motor.  People got fed up and said fuck it and bought a Mini Sprint or a 305 sprint Car.  Even USAC and their "affordable" Rules package couldn't Save ARDC.  yae they still have the USAC Eastern Storm but that is it there are only like 3 or 4 Midget teams left in NY NJ and PA that may race the Eastern Storm. 

If costs aren't controlled there will be no more race teams .  I see and have seen the same thing happening to Dirt Modified racing.  Sooner or later the average money teams are going to bail out because they cant keep it going and be competitive.  It is going to happen a lot faster than people want to admit too.  I have seen it first hand, I don't want to see it happen again

Yet the new USAC  East Coast wingless 360 club is thriving -- they did the common sense thing and basically said ASCS/ESS-style 360 motors, Central PA 358 motors and 305 Racesaver and 602 crate motors are all legal, I think they did some modest weight breaks, but one of the big equalizers is that with no top wing, it is a lot more driver and throttle control without that wing to plant the car. And it seems that all of the engine combos are competitive under their rules.

It wasn't that long ago (15 years ago ... okay maybe it was a while ago) that ARDC was getting 25-30 cars at every race (shortly after they went wingless) but people just couldn't handle the costs as they kept increasing. 600 wingless micros are thriving down there ... and the SpeedSTRs are doing pretty well, too. They are certainly not "cheap" classes, but they are something that the teams down there can afford.

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52 minutes ago, NODOORS said:

Tell that to all the Racing Club that Shut Down because the Owners of the Cars could not keep up with the costs to be competitive.  The latest one being ARDC, the tried to real in costs and it was still way to much money.  35,000 to 58,000 just for a Midget 4cyl motor.  People got fed up and said fuck it and bought a Mini Sprint or a 305 sprint Car.  Even USAC and their "affordable" Rules package couldn't Save ARDC.  yae they still have the USAC Eastern Storm but that is it there are only like 3 or 4 Midget teams left in NY NJ and PA that may race the Eastern Storm. 

If costs aren't controlled there will be no more race teams .  I see and have seen the same thing happening to Dirt Modified racing.  Sooner or later the average money teams are going to bail out because they cant keep it going and be competitive.  It is going to happen a lot faster than people want to admit too.  I have seen it first hand, I don't want to see it happen again

I agree with you 100%.....I argue against the rise in costs every opportunity I get....all I’m saying is this “cap” and “logging every item bought by every team” is more rediculous than the costs to begin with....the sanctioning bodies couldn’t afford to hire the people needed to monitor that idea.....it’s really quite simple....come up with cheaper options and make them a slight advantage....whether that be combining classes or cheaper engine options in each....and then tech them.....tech is not that difficult....yes a track or series has to have more than 1 guy and can’t pay them with a free hotdog, but it has and always will be the only way to keep guys within the rules....once a cheaper option starts winning guys will switch and more will get involved......in the 90s and early 2000’s there were tons of sportsman cars (not as many as now but consis almost everywhere).....by the Mid 2000s open motors were costing teams 15k and the rulebook was used as toilet paper.....car counts began to plummet....enter the crates....weight breaks....4 barrel carbs....they started winning(although some were cheated up) and everyone jumped on board....now there are too many....this is a quite simple plan to follow being that it was just done....

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People with a surplus income will spend it all on any hobby they see fit. Could be a $400,000 boat or a multi car race team..

They want to have the best, be/beat the best and will happily spend it all anyway they can. You can put a cap on there if you like but much like taxes, they will find loop holes.

Stamping/ capping parts is silly... what if a driver needs to borrow parts midway through the race night? If he's allowed to share parts at the track, a team like gypsum would also be allowed to share parts at the shop.. you'll just see the top teams have more registered cars in his shop so they can buy more parts. What if a driver has a string of bad luck and tears up a bunch of parts in the first 3rd of the season, is he then screwed out of the rest?

 

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I’ve advocated for limits, not in the form of caps but as others have raised make the rules so that a $5,000 crate is on the same playing field as an open motor. If a guy wants to spend $60,000 on an engine let him. But adjust the rules in the form of weight breaks, tires, etc so that the Engine performance advantage is offset. Sure there might not be a huge problem right now with attendance, but you need to think 5-10 years ahead if you want to keep this sport going. And decisions today will have consequences down the road. But I worry that people just aren’t listening.
 

It’s like the 358 super dirt car tour. multiple competitors on this very forum said they wouldn’t do it again and provided reasons. Did anyone take note or did their voices ring hollow? 

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WRG cant keep track of bolts or seals on a crate motor. Wow now that's a far fetched idea for sure.

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13 hours ago, jumper12a said:

For the record, ARDC still exists. They have a few races scheduled this year. Also, USAC Eastern Storm is 410 Sprint Cars, not Midgets. USAC PA Midget Week is different than Eastern Storm.

Yae technically speaking yes ARDC has a website OMG and 1 single race scheduled and no cars left.  Excuse me I made a mistake saying Eastern Storm. Its besides the point.  ARDC is done because teams could not and would not be able to compete.  They tried to set limits on RPM to make the Lower motor cars like the Focus competitive and it did not work.  MONEY drove the Demise of ARDC. 

Modified Racing is huge in NJ and NY not so much in PA where Open Wheel is the thing.  I love Sprint Cars and Midgets way more than modifieds (Personally)  Car Counts are way down in all forms of Dirt Racing because of the Cost to be successful and competitive. At least the Open Wheel side is trying to stay competitive with the Sprint Cars and the 305 motor.  BUT That is getting way out of hand just like the 360 motor did.  Again it is the guy that has the money that is running a 35000 dollar 305 and again it is starting to fail, because of the IM GOING TO WIN MNEY AND RULES BE DAMNED.

You have to stop the MONEY train or in 10 to 15 years or sooner there will ne no more Grass Roots Racing except for Maybe USAC and WOO  Sprint Cars because if you Can run a USAC or WOO Sprint Car. You have the Money to blow and not worry about it.  Northeast Modified Racing (Center Steer Mods) are going to be gone.  People are not going to keep up with the money needed to be competitive.  It is already happening in the BB fields.  How many cars / drivers are doing the entire DIRT BB Schedule now compared to when it started?  Its a fraction of them because the cost prevent them to do it, and the purses are not equal to the total costs.

Money has to be Capped or else we are looking at the demise of our beloved sport.

Someone Mentioned the SpeedStrs yes that is cost controlled and Parts Controlled by the manufacturer.  A suggestion I made earlier.  Wow go figure COST CONTROLED AND PARTS CONTROLED by the manufacturer Tobias Speed Equipment.  All part MUST be purchased through him.  All motors must be rebuilt by him.  Wow that was really hard to do?  In Modifieds you can do the same thing all parts through the Chassis manufacturer and serialized to the car.  If it is borrowed or bought the serial number goes to the other car  man that is s real difficult thing to do.  HMMM Go figure

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The speedstrs are 1 class of car, raced at few racetracks, with relatively low car count considering they have been around for quite awhile. If that was the answer don’t you think they would’ve taken over for modifieds....especially sportsman where there is extreme growth?  There could be a time when the big blocks are gone or combined across the board with other “modified” classes....but there will always be an enormous amount of sportsman cars. Probably the easiest path to large numbers of both is just a 602 sportsman class and a 604 modified class.....let the mods be 2300 lbs sportsman 2400lbs....same rules otherwise. Splits the sportsman in half....75% of mod guys buy 604s....and maybe 25% get out of racing.....there is no solution for everyone. Whether engine builders like it or not, grass roots dirt racing is going crate. 

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