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9 minutes ago, scottnorwood said:

I could be off by one year or so but I think that first "current style" chassis by Bicknell was around 1999 or 2000.

I have often wondered if someone pulled out a brand new never used 2000x Bicknell and put the latest shocks, engine, setup on that chassis could they still win?

They would lose a bit on aero and the small tweaks....but it would be crazy if a 2000x could still win 20 years later.

 

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I was put on vacation for political talk....then read nothing but political talk for 30 days... there’s no need to get back involved....those who I think are idiots won’t change my mind.....much like

Definitely not brilliant.

Never thought I’d see Pablo Picasso and Steve Jobs mentioned on DTD. You’re either brilliant or high on meth. At this point of COVID-19 I’ll take either. 

24 minutes ago, scottnorwood said:

I have often wondered if someone pulled out a brand new never used 2000x Bicknell and put the latest shocks, engine, setup on that chassis could they still win?

They would lose a bit on aero and the small tweaks....but it would be crazy if a 2000x could still win 20 years later.

I really think you could take an older car now and add LR drop rail and left side panhard mounts and not be that far off.  Plus all the current day bolt-ons should pretty much work.

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The smartest thing Teo could do would be to re-debut the original stage 1 car, add a left side drop rail and a rubber floor. Put it on coils and a left side panhardt....give a few away to guys who can win and get back in the game. They have always tried to re-invent the wheel every other year, which is costly for teams and difficult on drivers. They have focused so hard on tracks they have success at(the valley, Middletown) that in until recently are completely different than most other tracks. The r&d does not switch over. 
 

Troyer probably has a decent piece....they have been competitive really throughout, take away the original 4-link experiment and a few off years in the mid to late 2000s.....but when your cars are the most expensive and the owner is the most difficult to deal with, your in trouble. 
 

Bicknell has the most consistent year in and out chassis, the best parts distribution, the best customer service, usually the best pricing, and the longest list of drivers. Tough to beat that without giving stuff away to start swaying public perception and Teo and troyer are not going to do that. 

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4 hours ago, rpm72x said:

The smartest thing Teo could do would be to re-debut the original stage 1 car, add a left side drop rail and a rubber floor. Put it on coils and a left side panhardt....give a few away to guys who can win and get back in the game. They have always tried to re-invent the wheel every other year, which is costly for teams and difficult on drivers. They have focused so hard on tracks they have success at(the valley, Middletown) that in until recently are completely different than most other tracks. The r&d does not switch over. 
 

Troyer probably has a decent piece....they have been competitive really throughout, take away the original 4-link experiment and a few off years in the mid to late 2000s.....but when your cars are the most expensive and the owner is the most difficult to deal with, your in trouble. 
 

Bicknell has the most consistent year in and out chassis, the best parts distribution, the best customer service, usually the best pricing, and the longest list of drivers. Tough to beat that without giving stuff away to start swaying public perception and Teo and troyer are not going to do that. 

Where the hell have you been? It's been quiet around here without you around ....Welcome back

 

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30 minutes ago, lenster24 said:

Where the hell have you been? It's been quiet around here without you around ....Welcome back

 

I was put on vacation for political talk....then read nothing but political talk for 30 days... there’s no need to get back involved....those who I think are idiots won’t change my mind.....much like the rest of the world, only one side of the argument is welcomed here, so I’ll only contribute to racing threads. 

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How big a difference is there in actual speed between say late 80s/early 90s Big Block modified compared to big block mods of the last few years. Engine's have gotten way more expensive but do any of them actually have more then 800HP like they did then?  I read at one time Bob McCreadie actually had a 1000hp Big Block from Ron Hutter. And we know that shock & spring technology has greatly improved, ignition systems have changed, tires have changed (not for the better in my opinion). 

That's a good question too, what are the positives & negatives from then to now with Big Block Modifieds?

LoL I know I'll only understand about 25% of it, but I love where this thread has been going.

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2 hours ago, Jack Brady said:

How big a difference is there in actual speed between say late 80s/early 90s Big Block modified compared to big block mods of the last few years. Engine's have gotten way more expensive but do any of them actually have more then 800HP like they did then?  I read at one time Bob McCreadie actually had a 1000hp Big Block from Ron Hutter. And we know that shock & spring technology has greatly improved, ignition systems have changed, tires have changed (not for the better in my opinion). 

That's a good question too, what are the positives & negatives from then to now with Big Block Modifieds?

LoL I know I'll only understand about 25% of it, but I love where this thread has been going.

The speeds have not greatly increased....in fact lap times at a place like Fulton were slower most nights with big blocks than the old alcohol small blocks were turning, but most of that is because of track surfaces. Most places either (A) don’t have the quality or quantity of clay they once had, or (B) are not maintained the same. Track promoters used to work a surface most of the week, it was a job and an art, now....4 hours before hot laps on race day seems to be a common starting point. The black slick surfaces of today were not always the norm. If you could match a big block of today against a big block of 30 years ago, the difference would be astonishing, especially on the slick stuff. 

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2 hours ago, Jack Brady said:

How big a difference is there in actual speed between say late 80s/early 90s Big Block modified compared to big block mods of the last few years. Engine's have gotten way more expensive but do any of them actually have more then 800HP like they did then?  I read at one time Bob McCreadie actually had a 1000hp Big Block from Ron Hutter. And we know that shock & spring technology has greatly improved, ignition systems have changed, tires have changed (not for the better in my opinion). 

That's a good question too, what are the positives & negatives from then to now with Big Block Modifieds?

LoL I know I'll only understand about 25% of it, but I love where this thread has been going.

Modifieds today get much more side bite. The suspension, mostly shock packages have improved such that the tires are in constant contact with the surface. Those 2 factors cause the track prep to be difficult. If you make it heavy in most cases it will get rough. There are some outliers based on clay and configuration (turn radius, banking) but mostly the modifieds will dig in rather than bounce like in the eighties.

I watched some modifieds in the 80s at Fulton on youTube...its really tough to watch. Cars bouncing all over on huge tires but the track is in nice shape.

Go watch 80s dirt modifieds on youtube and then watch highlights from Bridgeport SDS race. Ask yourself which piece of clay you would rather be?

We just didn't know any better.

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I agree, the tracks cannot be as fast as in years past, equipment is too expensive and the teams do not want it hammer down. With that said, you can with the correct amount of time and effort create a tacky surface without it being super rough, but that requires a lot of work throughout the week....usually if you see super fast and rough tracks now, it’s because of constant weather or way too much water dumped close to race time. There is no reason every track cannot usually have a semi smooth to smooth surface, a line of brown on the bottom, line of brown on the top and burnt through the middle weekly. It just takes a bit of effort. These conditions usually produce the best racing as well. When a place is burnt in hot laps....it’s because it was still burnt from the week before at 3 o clock on race day and they didn’t want it rough so water was used sparingly....when it’s super rough, it was probably still burnt to shit from the week before at 3 o clock on race day so the track crew dropped a lake on it prior to hot laps. 

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I think hig fab, PMC, and DKM are putting up some decent win numbers for the amount of cars they have on the track......i guess if you race for a living you got to go with what is winning..... would be interesting to see if Matt Sheppard or stew decided to run something else what they would choose and why.....stew had the DKM going pretty good

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Ok yeah, there is big difference between how tracks are prepped these days. OCFS use to have the water truck on the track right after the races, I use to see some tracks that would tear the track up right after the last feature event. Also you never hear about calcium anymore. I know towards the end of the 80s it was getting really expensive.

Did anyone watch the Five Mile race tonight? Please explain what is going on with that track surface. I remember it use to get rough and dusty but they use to have 3 to 4 wide racing. Tonight they could barely pass. The surface kind of reminded me of those short track enclosed ovals the motorcycles run on. Just constant dirt flying, but not dusty. Andy has bragged about no tire wear the last few years. If you can't get traction you probably won't have tire wear. 

Orion I also wondered why Stew left DKM, he was winning and very strong everywhere he went. I wonder if Bicknell gave him a great offer or something. 

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Stew is going to win in anything to an extent....difference being when the 44 and the 9s squared off with stew in a DKM, Matt was certainly favored. Now in the same equipment Stew is certainly the man to beat. DKM and HFC have carved out their own niche of clientele, seemingly sportsman, 358 or small block competitors in certain areas. They can accommodate guys on a budget that want a new chassis but can’t buy all the bolt on stuff so each company will build cars that will suit your needs. This is good and bad. If trying to compete with the big 3 is your end goal(which idk if either company intends on) I think super focusing on your design is critical. Everything needs to be the same, and it needs to be your design vision. You will not go to troyer and have them build you a bicknell body  or clip a TEO....HFC will do both. In certain applications I think a good driver with a good setup will win regardless of chassis....when you roll into a SDS race or a crown jewel type of an event that’s not the case. Stew knew that, and that’s why he is in a Bicknell. Not to mention, if winning races is how you make your living.....being a guinea pig isn’t in the cards for very long. 

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2 hours ago, The Rabbitt said:

Jack Brady, calcium is still a big thing... everyones afraid of the eco-nazi's so they tend to keep it hush hush... Even the ones who deny it and have rumors of why they can't use it.... 

I have been to tracks early am and saw the white stuff on tn the track.   I was told  by the staff at one of the tracks that it was indeed calcium

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5 hours ago, The Rabbitt said:

Jack Brady, calcium is still a big thing... everyones afraid of the eco-nazi's so they tend to keep it hush hush... Even the ones who deny it and have rumors of why they can't use it.... 

I never heard of a ban on the use of calcium. Just know it was getting very expensive. But that was 25/30 years ago. 

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How can you tell a Teo from a Bicknell from a Troyer from a DKM just by looking at a car on the track or sitting in the pits?  I know the Teo's have a little welded plate that says "TEO" in the back of the roll cage.  Other than that, I have no clue.  Fill me in folks.......

 

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48 minutes ago, Ric said:

How can you tell a Teo from a Bicknell from a Troyer from a DKM just by looking at a car on the track or sitting in the pits?  I know the Teo's have a little welded plate that says "TEO" in the back of the roll cage.  Other than that, I have no clue.  Fill me in folks.......

 

Normally you can tell by the front bumper. You have to learn which is which but they are all unique. There are other small things to notice but you would have to be up close  sometimes to be able to tell. Not sure if there's anything defining about the bodies.

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If the cars have the correct body on the car there are quite a few differences. Noses, windows, rear of fuel cell, body bracing, lower plastic etc. The front bumpers are different, rear bumpers and nerf bars are similar but if you know each one you can tell the small differences. You would have to take some mental notes of each and you will be able to pick them out pretty quick. 

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But for the average fan they all look alike except for the paint schemes. It's kind of funny that they all look alike right now, but the first car I saw with this basic style we have now is Tobias in the early 90s( not the front of the car but the back window etc.. But back then you could tell a Teo, Bicknell, Troyer, Birosh all apart from each other. Every chassis had a distinct body style. I think it was Show Car or Champ Car that I think had the best looking style bodies with the Daytona back window and spoiler. I remember Pat Ward's car looked mean that way. A lot of the Olsen guys had the Ford Mekur, I had never even heard of that model ever till I then. I've only seen one real Ford Mekur in my whole life and that was in a junk yard.

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The sanctioning bodies have put in body rules....door height, window height and shape, roof angle etc. most manufacturers are trying to build to the extent of that rule without being illegal. This has partially created extremely similar cars, especially from a distance. The Stss have different rules than dirtcar, so most builders offer a “Dirtcar” or “outlaw” body kit. The doors will be taller, windows are taller if sail panels are not allowed. As far as sail panels, IMO all modifieds should have them, atleast it’s something to differentiate the mods and sportsman. 

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2 minutes ago, rpm72x said:

The sanctioning bodies have put in body rules....door height, window height and shape, roof angle etc. most manufacturers are trying to build to the extent of that rule without being illegal. This has partially created extremely similar cars, especially from a distance. The Stss have different rules than dirtcar, so most builders offer a “Dirtcar” or “outlaw” body kit. The doors will be taller, windows are taller if sail panels are not allowed. As far as sail panels, IMO all modifieds should have them, atleast it’s something to differentiate the mods and sportsman. 

 Big D puts panels on the sportsman and not the mods.    I like that

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1 minute ago, leroy said:

 Big D puts panels on the sportsman and not the mods.    I like that

I think it can work at some places, but the mods can actually utilize the sail panels instead of it just causing them to be tight all the time. 

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