sportsmen and modified

[nerfbarracing]

Can any one tell me what the difference between a modified and a sportsman at Malta speedway

[22racingteam]

Just the Motor.

[BigBob7]

about $50,000

[puppyd]

[quote name='BigBob7' timestamp='1335212115' post='372560']
about $50,000
[/quote]

Your kidding, right?

[acammer]

[quote name='puppyd' timestamp='1335213390' post='372567']
Your kidding, right?
[/quote]

I guess that depends on if we're talking about a front of the grid, or a rear of the grid modified. I'm sure there are plenty of top flight guys that have 50k just in the driveline.

[Outlaw Photos]

[quote name='puppyd' timestamp='1335213390' post='372567']
Your kidding, right?
[/quote]

I'm thinking more in the 20,000.00 to 30,000.00 range to run up front

[BigBob7]

Most sportsman guys have 5-7 grand in their motors w/a good carb & a top running mod has 35-40 G's in a motor. Add in a few big dollar shocks & the traction control that we all know they use & you are looking at at least another 50 G's

[50JAGAIN]

Legal sportsman engines cost 5,000-6,000 Dressed out
Good Small Block Modifieds 26,000-28,000

[Tom Avenengo]

Not really off topic, but how are the lap times between the top in both classes at A/S? Times at Accord, between their Mods, Sportsman and Spec Sportsman are almost the same. At OC on opening night, the top speed in the Sportsman feature was faster than most of the Big Blocks - like faster than 20 of them. And, do both classes at A/S have good close competition?

[nerfbarracing]

Thank you I have been asked that about 30Times over the last 10 years so it all comes down to money like thing in this world

[ChrisAkulis]

[quote name='Tom Avenengo' timestamp='1335229998' post='372623']
Not really off topic, but how are the lap times between the top in both classes at A/S? Times at Accord, between their Mods, Sportsman and Spec Sportsman are almost the same. At OC on opening night, the top speed in the Sportsman feature was faster than most of the Big Blocks - like faster than 20 of them. And, do both classes at A/S have good close competition?
[/quote]

I can't help myself...

At the risk of repeating what I have said on here for the past 10 years, what Tom is stating here has essentially gone ignored by higher-ups for whatever reason. Everyone worries about car counts (a number of tracks last week had < 20 Modifieds) and the same guys winning all the time. But yet the Sportsman class runs almost the same lap times with engines that cost well less than half what a decent Modified engine does. Their fields are usually full too.

Why somebody doesn't step up and promote the Sportsman class and pay them a decent purse is beyond me. Run 30 lap features that pay $1000 to win and $150 to start - that would generally make drivers in that class happy as pigs in mud. You'd have full fields, competitive races, and a lot less wear and tear on the track. Silver Spring did it for YEARS with a 'sportsman' type Sprint class and I challenge anyone to find a fan who didn't think the racing there was excellent. Even right in the heart of Pennsylvania 410 Sprint tracks.

Or all we just contant to watch people mortgage their homes and spend dollars they don't have just to say that they are running a 'real' Modified class??

[driverX]

[quote name='Chris Akulis' timestamp='1335263172' post='372656']
I can't help myself...

At the risk of repeating what I have said on here for the past 10 years, what Tom is stating here has essentially gone ignored by higher-ups for whatever reason. Everyone worries about car counts (a number of tracks last week had < 20 Modifieds) and the same guys winning all the time. But yet the Sportsman class runs almost the same lap times with engines that cost well less than half what a decent Modified engine does. Their fields are usually full too.

Why somebody doesn't step up and promote the Sportsman class and pay them a decent purse is beyond me. Run 30 lap features that pay $1000 to win and $150 to start - that would generally make drivers in that class happy as pigs in mud. You'd have full fields, competitive races, and a lot less wear and tear on the track. Silver Spring did it for YEARS with a 'sportsman' type Sprint class and I challenge anyone to find a fan who didn't think the racing there was excellent. Even right in the heart of Pennsylvania 410 Sprint tracks.

Or all we just contant to watch people mortgage their homes and spend dollars they don't have just to say that they are running a 'real' Modified class??
[/quote]
The modifieds at Malta are atleast 2 seconds slower than the 358's were at Malta when it was pavement. I still do not see what people find so exciting about modifieds tiptoeing around a black slick track at speeds slower than most sportsman cars. When the tracks were tacky and fast you couldn't match the show the big blocks put on with their horsepower. Supposedly it's cheaper to run an engine on a dry slick track, but if it is why is the engine cost so high and the rebuild price so high? I have run a modified for 30 plus years. My engine cost was lower when the tracks were tacky than it was when they went to dry slick. Now I run my car on pavement at Airborne and my engine cost is the lowest I have ever spent. My car is a top 10 car every week, just as it was when I raced on dirt. I like racing on the pavement, but give me a tacky dirt track and I would fall in love all over again :)until then you guys can have your black slick dirt tracks at slower than sportsman speeds

[Images By DC]

[quote name='Chris Akulis' timestamp='1335263172' post='372656']
I can't help myself...

At the risk of repeating what I have said on here for the past 10 years, what Tom is stating here has essentially gone ignored by higher-ups for whatever reason. Everyone worries about car counts (a number of tracks last week had < 20 Modifieds) and the same guys winning all the time. But yet the Sportsman class runs almost the same lap times with engines that cost well less than half what a decent Modified engine does. Their fields are usually full too.

Why somebody doesn't step up and promote the Sportsman class and pay them a decent purse is beyond me. Run 30 lap features that pay $1000 to win and $150 to start - that would generally make drivers in that class happy as pigs in mud. You'd have full fields, competitive races, and a lot less wear and tear on the track. Silver Spring did it for YEARS with a 'sportsman' type Sprint class and I challenge anyone to find a fan who didn't think the racing there was excellent. Even right in the heart of Pennsylvania 410 Sprint tracks.

Or all we just contant to watch people mortgage their homes and spend dollars they don't have just to say that they are running a 'real' Modified class??
[/quote]

Sorry, I know im going off topic but..
It seemes as though purse dosent matter to sportsman guys. If it did The Ridge would have had a lot more of them last Friday. So, if I were a promoter and saw that guys were willing to race for less I would give them less. They have no one to blame but themselves.
JMO.

DC

[22racingteam]

[quote name='Images By DC' timestamp='1335274332' post='372681']
Sorry, I know im going off topic but..
It seemes as though purse dosent matter to sportsman guys. If it did The Ridge would have had a lot more of them last Friday. So, if I were a promoter and saw that guys were willing to race for less I would give them less. They have no one to blame but themselves.
JMO.

DC
[/quote]
Going to the Ridge for $200 more to win over Malta is a little different then if a track was paying $1000 to win every week! $1000 to win and $150 to start is a pretty big diffence. JMO

[ask0329]

This is off topic but goes along with the payouts and distance comments.

I could drive 198 miles for 3 hours one way to track C on a friday night for $100 to start. That drive could cost me approx $80 in gas round trip and thats being generous at 20 mpg. Or I could race at track B on a friday night for $45 to start. That drive is 10 miles one way and takes approx 20 minutes so being generous it costs $4.07 in gas.

Higher payouts in any class at any track are and would be fantastic but you have to look at the feesibility of it from the drivers aspect. Would I love to race at a track that pays $100 to start? Absolutely. Does it make sense for me to drive and pay all that gas? No way. So I stay in my backyard and have fun.

[dundeedm]

[quote name='Chris Akulis' timestamp='1335263172' post='372656']
I can't help myself...

At the risk of repeating what I have said on here for the past 10 years, what Tom is stating here has essentially gone ignored by higher-ups for whatever reason. Everyone worries about car counts (a number of tracks last week had < 20 Modifieds) and the same guys winning all the time. But yet the Sportsman class runs almost the same lap times with engines that cost well less than half what a decent Modified engine does. Their fields are usually full too.

Why somebody doesn't step up and promote the Sportsman class and pay them a decent purse is beyond me. Run 30 lap features that pay $1000 to win and $150 to start - that would generally make drivers in that class happy as pigs in mud. You'd have full fields, competitive races, and a lot less wear and tear on the track. Silver Spring did it for YEARS with a 'sportsman' type Sprint class and I challenge anyone to find a fan who didn't think the racing there was excellent. Even right in the heart of Pennsylvania 410 Sprint tracks.

Or all we just contant to watch people mortgage their homes and spend dollars they don't have just to say that they are running a 'real' Modified class??
[/quote]

No top track survives with Sportsman as their main class.. thats why.. And over half those sportsman are putting in as much if not more then half the field of modified drivers. They spend 5-7,000 on a spec motor then turn around and spend another 15,000 to cheat it up. For a $500 purse? Sportsman were meant to be a starter class into the modifieds. Some how it losts its way. And is just another class that out priced itself. If tracks would really crack down on the Sportsman class and keep them in line with the rules, you wouldn't be seeing speeds so close to the Small Block and Big Block modifieds. Except maybe on a very slick track.

[138dirt]

[quote name='Images By DC' time stamp='1335274332' post='372681']
Sorry, I knowI'mm going off topic but..
Iseemses as though pursdoesn'tnt matter to sportsman guys. If it did The Ridge would have had a lot more of them last Friday. So, if I were a promoter and saw that guys were willing to race for less I would give them less. They have no one to blame but themselves.
JMO.

DC
[/quote]

I am sorry DC, no disrespect. I don't agree with people saying that the purse does not matter to sportsman owners. I can speek from experience and say that it is very important to me and probably half of the field running the class. Most are low budget out of pocket racers, and if they break, they will be trying to figure out how to pay for parts so they can get the car back together for the next week, so based on that I would say that every $ that can be taken back in is very important. Thank God for people like Dick Hicks who will do what he can to help people out for a very reasonable rate. Racing runs very deep in my family and started grandfather back in the 6 cylinder coupe days, so the people who want to make the coment, if you can't afford it you shouldn't be doing it, really shouldn't be judging and couldn't begin to understand. I think what is not being considered is what Malta has to offer over Glen Ridge, and I am in no way putting Glen Ridge down, because it is a great track and the racing is as exciting as any other. Malta has a great location which usually means less miles of towing and being home a little earlier, and less money in fuel, lots of history, it is also a track that is fun to race. Malta also is a bigger track and I believe that it typically has less equipment getting ripped up than Glen Ridge. I guess I can't come up with better reasons why people are running track that pay out less money. but I don't believe that the money doesn't matter to most.

Another thing frustrating about this topic, is people commenting on this are people that have never even been on a race track and sit in the stands and judge and have no idea what it takes to run one of these cars. The expense of running a sportsman car is almost equal to a modified with the exception of motor and fuel, so to race for a $250 purse is very hard, not to mention doing it on a $500 purse, and that is only if you win. What is even worse is a $25 pay out back in the field. OUCH!!! Can't even buy fuel for the truck with that pay out. It amazes me that it cost twice as much to run one of these cars than it did a few years ago and the purse continues to go down.

I would aapologizeto opolagize for going off topic.

[Bicknell27h]

[quote name='Dennis W Murphy' timestamp='1335294084' post='372724']
No top track survives with Sportsman as their main class.. thats why.. And over half those sportsman are putting in as much if not more then half the field of modified drivers. They spend 5-7,000 on a spec motor then turn around and spend another 15,000 to cheat it up. For a $500 purse? Sportsman were meant to be a starter class into the modifieds. Some how it losts its way. And is just another class that out priced itself. If tracks would really crack down on the Sportsman class and keep them in line with the rules, you wouldn't be seeing speeds so close to the Small Block and Big Block modifieds. Except maybe on a very slick track.
[/quote]

Seriously? Not one of your estimates is even remotly close.

3207 for a 602 crate delivered, 3-400 for exhaust(new), 700-pullies, pumps, etc., 1000-1200 for a decent carb and like 150 for a rev box. There is no one putting 15,000 into a crate to cheat.

[138dirt]

[quote name='Dennis W Murphy' timestamp='1335294084' post='372724']
No top track survives with Sportsman as their main class.. thats why.. And over half those sportsman are putting in as much if not more then half the field of modified drivers. They spend 5-7,000 on a spec motor then turn around and spend another 15,000 to cheat it up. For a $500 purse? Sportsman were meant to be a starter class into themodifieds. Some how itlosts its way. And is just another class that out priced itself. If tracks would really crack down on the Sportsman class and keep them in line with the rules, you wouldn't be seeing speeds so close to the Small Block and Big Blockmodifieds. Except maybe on a very slick track.
[/quote]


I agree with the lap times and the cheaters, which is a shame.

I don't know the reason why some tracks started the budget sportsman class, but I specifically remember when CVRA made the change over to crate motor racing, it was presented to be an affordable class to race in, where you could have fun and not buy a $30,000 motor. It was also said in the meeting that no new cars would be allowd in the class and we all see how that has worked out. The first couple of years in the class was a blast and it has been down hill since. It is a great starter class, but I don't believe that was the main reason for this class existing. JMO If I remember right CVRA was the first 602 crate budget class and others followed.

[BigBob7]

[quote name='138dirt' timestamp='1335298886' post='372730']
I agree with the lap times and the cheaters, which is a shame.

I don't know the reason why some tracks started the budget sportsman class, but I specifically remember when CVRA made the change over to crate motor racing, it was presented to be an affordable class to race in, where you could have fun and not buy a $30,000 motor. It was also said in the meeting that no new cars would be allowd in the class and we all see how that has worked out. The first couple of years in the class was a blast and it has been down hill since. It is a great starter class, but I don't believe that was the main reason for this class existing. JMO If I remember right CVRA was the first 602 crate budget class and other santions followed.
[/quote]

Oh Boy, Custom's gonna get ya for that last quote!

[138dirt]

[quote name='BigBob7' timestamp='1335301206' post='372736']
Oh Boy, Custom's gonna get ya for that last quote!
[/quote]


OOOPS!!!! Sorry!!!!

[Jimmy8J]

JMO If I remember right CVRA was the first 602 crate budget class and others followed.
[/quote]


I am pretty sure the first 602 crate motor in this area (LV / Malta/ Ridge/ Fonda) was owned by Bruce Richards and put in a Pro Stock that ran Malta and Devils Bowl in 2002. There were a handul of us running them in Pro Stocks before the "Budget Sportsman" class was even around. He had to give a pretty big weight brake if you ran a 602 crate vs. a built 2 barrel motor in order for anyone to even consider the engine change. I'm Pretty sure 2007 was the first year of the "Budgets" on the CVRA and Glen Ridge had some version of the Budgets before that.

[MGs4me]

Jimmy, 2007 was definitely the first year for "Budgets" at A/S. As I recall we had a 100-150lb weight break running the "602" compared to the "Noels" and "Homebuilt" engines. Glen Ridge had the "Budgets" a year or 2 earlier. I think the original premise of the "Budgets" was a good one. Older chassis, used parts, tires, wheels, etc running an economical engine. I had less than $6000 invested in my first car (and I paid way too much for the chassis). It's kind of a shame that the "Budgets" as we know them morphed in to pretty much "Dirt Sportsmen".

[dundeedm]

[quote name='Budget #29' timestamp='1335306403' post='372745']
Jimmy, 2007 was definitely the first year for "Budgets" at A/S. As I recall we had a 100-150lb weight break running the "602" compared to the "Noels" and "Homebuilt" engines. Glen Ridge had the "Budgets" a year or 2 earlier. I think the original premise of the "Budgets" was a good one. Older chassis, used parts, tires, wheels, etc running an economical engine. I had less than $6000 invested in my first car (and I paid way too much for the chassis). It's kind of a shame that the "Budgets" as we know them morphed in to pretty much "Dirt Sportsmen".
[/quote]

Funny thing about that, thats exactly what the original sportsman were suppose to be. When Steve Sh ultz was dominating the sportsman he was running an old chassis, with old bars, with old tires on old wheels. He shopped after every race. then down the road guys like Spano came in with brand new cars, $15,000 engines (or more), and enclosed haulers. A guy who could easily afford to race in the big block ranks, but obviously never had the talent.. so he just tried to out spend people. And others started to do the same. Then came the track tire, so there goes using old modified tires. Lack of regulating the class led to a totally ridiculous spending in a class that didnt pay much better then the Pro Stocks. And the cheating so bad that at ESW the winner of the Sportsman race a few years ago had such an obvious illegal it was just laughable. While everyone else's limiter would hit between the flagger stand the the first turn, his would hit in the middle of the corner? He would pull out a straightaway lead then let 2nd pull close and just pull right away off the corner and have a straightaway lead again. Rumor's of his 2nd ignition box under his seat were ramped but the tech was a complete joke..

And at non-DIRTcar tracks it was even more laughable.. Then came the Crate Motor, where I actually heard a sportsman customer say it was a waste cause he would have to spend $10K just to cheat it up.. It's just sad.

[Tom Avenengo]

[quote name='Dennis W Murphy' timestamp='1335314218' post='372757']
Funny thing about that, thats exactly what the original sportsman were suppose to be. When Steve Sh ultz was dominating the sportsman he was running an old chassis, with old bars, with old tires on old wheels. He shopped after every race. then down the road guys like Spano came in with brand new cars, $15,000 engines (or more), and enclosed haulers. A guy who could easily afford to race in the big block ranks, but obviously never had the talent.. so he just tried to out spend people. And others started to do the same. Then came the track tire, so there goes using old modified tires. Lack of regulating the class led to a totally ridiculous spending in a class that didnt pay much better then the Pro Stocks. And the cheating so bad that at ESW the winner of the Sportsman race a few years ago had such an obvious illegal it was just laughable. While everyone else's limiter would hit between the flagger stand the the first turn, his would hit in the middle of the corner? He would pull out a straightaway lead then let 2nd pull close and just pull right away off the corner and have a straightaway lead again. Rumor's of his 2nd ignition box under his seat were ramped but the tech was a complete joke..

And at non-DIRTcar tracks it was even more laughable.. Then came the Crate Motor, where I actually heard a sportsman customer say it was a waste cause he would have to spend $10K just to cheat it up.. It's just sad.
[/quote]

The original idea/rules for the "Sportsman" class was basically as you said - older chassis etc etc. As for the engines, I believe they originally were supposed to be "Strett Stock" engines? I forget who it was that won a "Sportsman" feature at oCFS during that first year of the class, but when interviewed, the driver made mention of having to borrow so-and-so's STREET STOCK engine to run that night. Pretty sure it was Tim Pitts that was doing the interview, and he seemed astounded that the driver had to use a "Street Stock" engine. I immediately said - Hell, that's what they're supposed to be using. Yup, the whole "Soortsman" lass went way down hill from it's original inception. I guess we can blame the tracks, DIRT and everyone else involed with the making of the rules, right?