Would you patronize a bar that charged full price for half full glasses of beer?

[BillSmith]

1 hour ago, ChrisAkulis said:

People who say “If you don’t like the product, don’t go”….. have you looked in the stands at most places lately?  That’s exactly what people are doing. I think what Bob is trying to accomplish here is to let track operators know maybe WHY there are so few people in the stands now.. 🤷🏼‍♂️

NASCAR used to say that a lot, too ... and it's working for them, amirite? The only way to sell out a race these days is to remove grandstands.

[Jack Brady]

It's pretty simple especially with the one-way radios and the race monitors. When the track is clear, we go one lap and back to racing. If you went to the pits and don't get out in time thats your problem. No mandatory 3 free laps for every car that runs to the pits. That is just friggen stupid. It just takes simple rules, no tire changes unless you have a flat. No shock or bar or spring changes or adjustments unless it's broken and must be verified by an official. Curtesy laps only for cars that are sent to pits for safety reasons by race director (parts or body panels hanging dangerously off the car or race monitor/one way radio not working). 

DIRTcar and STSS needs to stop bending over for the top teams who have all the extra parts and tires. A lot of teams if something breaks or they get a flat they have to pull in for the rest of the race because they can't afford to use up tires and parts or don't have the crew to make quick changes. It levels the playing field; how often do we see Sheppard or Stewart dive into the pits get the free laps+ to make wholesale changes and drive from the back to the front? Seems like all the rules are to benefit the big teams. 

Don't get me wrong I love seeing those guys come from the back but sometimes is just ridiculous like those two are running against Sportsman after coming back out of the pits.

Next, they'll be having mandatory stops through the races and count laps while they do it like NASCAR does. Talk about stealing laps. They count every single lap till the end if they have to have a green, white, checker, which some how they seem to have a lot more than they used to. Back before green, white, checkers you didn't have as many cautions in the last 10 laps and the race was over at 400 or 500 or whatever the reported race length was. A good 40% of Cup races are mainly under caution. Last year NASCAR had 8.2 cautions per race and usually used about 5 laps up per caution. Thats not even adding the laps during the stage breaks.

[con7]

5 hours ago, ChrisAkulis said:

People who say “If you don’t like the product, don’t go”….. have you looked in the stands at most places lately?  That’s exactly what people are doing. I think what Bob is trying to accomplish here is to let track operators know maybe WHY there are so few people in the stands now.. 🤷🏼‍♂️

To each their own, but if you told me a year end  200 lapper was going to be all green flag laps this year, you couldn’t pay me to go. It would probably take 3-4 hours to complete on a race track that would be completely trash 75 laps in. 
 

NYS mod fans have this odd fascination with number of laps and length of track. As the sprint cars and LMs have shown many of us, less laps and shorter tracks often provide much more excitement than watching a follow the leader race on a one lane track with announcers manufacturing drama about running out of fuel or tires. 

[ChrisAkulis]

As long as we’re talking about cautions and especially flat tires…. Does anyone know why Modified races always seem to have no less than a dozen cars get flat tires every race?  I watch Sprint and LM races and they rarely get flats, but Modifieds for some reason rip them to shreds.  Races too long?  Cars too heavy?  Teams running air pressure too low?  Combination of all of that?  And I’m not even talking about tracks like Oswego where guys blast the inner Jersey barriers over and over…

[iamaranger23]

1 hour ago, Jack Brady said:

A good 40% of Cup races are mainly under caution.

Where the hell do you get these numbers LMAO 

 

There was 12,955 miles of cup racing this year. 2,214 of those miles were under yellow. For a total of 17.1%. And that including everything... stages, rain, wrecks etc.  Cautions were also at a 5 year high. 

 

There were a total 1,596 caution laps, which itself isnt a very meaningful number with how much track size varies. 

 

Please, tell me how you managed to get to that 40% number?

 

 

[leakin_fluids]

40 minutes ago, con7 said:

To each their own, but if you told me a year end  200 lapper was going to be all green flag laps this year, you couldn’t pay me to go. It would probably take 3-4 hours to complete on a race track that would be completely trash 75 laps in. 

If someone wants 200 laps, go watch pavement.

Dirt racing is Short tracks with short distances too. It's supposed to be a "drive as hard as possible the whole time" event.

The only strategy should be "I gotta get to the front as soon as I can before the laps run out". 

[Sicklajoie]

58 minutes ago, ChrisAkulis said:

As long as we’re talking about cautions and especially flat tires…. Does anyone know why Modified races always seem to have no less than a dozen cars get flat tires every race?  I watch Sprint and LM races and they rarely get flats, but Modifieds for some reason rip them to shreds.  Races too long?  Cars too heavy?  Teams running air pressure too low?  Combination of all of that?  And I’m not even talking about tracks like Oswego where guys blast the inner Jersey barriers over and over…

Tire compounds, tire prep, driving style

[dan dan]

If you figure you may get a half glass of beer or half a race before going in and that ends up being the case, that's the own person's fault for taking that chance. 
When I went to perry in the fall, I prolly could count all the flat tires from 3 classes on 1 hand I believe.  Heats included. And a couple of them actually knew where the infield was. 
Most tracks do I believe, you bring out 2-3 cautions your done. Make it you go to pits twice and your done whether you bring out caution or not. Might not cure it, but ought to slow it down and help. 

[inthecuse]

4 hours ago, Jack Brady said:

It's pretty simple especially with the one-way radios and the race monitors. When the track is clear, we go one lap and back to racing. If you went to the pits and don't get out in time thats your problem. No mandatory 3 free laps for every car that runs to the pits. That is just friggen stupid. It just takes simple rules, no tire changes unless you have a flat. No shock or bar or spring changes or adjustments unless it's broken and must be verified by an official. Curtesy laps only for cars that are sent to pits for safety reasons by race director (parts or body panels hanging dangerously off the car or race monitor/one way radio not working). 

DIRTcar and STSS needs to stop bending over for the top teams who have all the extra parts and tires. A lot of teams if something breaks or they get a flat they have to pull in for the rest of the race because they can't afford to use up tires and parts or don't have the crew to make quick changes. It levels the playing field; how often do we see Sheppard or Stewart dive into the pits get the free laps+ to make wholesale changes and drive from the back to the front? Seems like all the rules are to benefit the big teams. 

Don't get me wrong I love seeing those guys come from the back but sometimes is just ridiculous like those two are running against Sportsman after coming back out of the pits.

Next, they'll be having mandatory stops through the races and count laps while they do it like NASCAR does. Talk about stealing laps. They count every single lap till the end if they have to have a green, white, checker, which some how they seem to have a lot more than they used to. Back before green, white, checkers you didn't have as many cautions in the last 10 laps and the race was over at 400 or 500 or whatever the reported race length was. A good 40% of Cup races are mainly under caution. Last year NASCAR had 8.2 cautions per race and usually used about 5 laps up per caution. Thats not even adding the laps during the stage breaks.

I agree with everything you said and you said it perfectly.

Especially with part about catering to the teams have a whole trailer full of parts, tire compounds, and shock setups where they can adjust their car to fit the track surface and then change that setup again if the track surface changes during the race OR if they just totally missed the setup at the beginning of the race and want to readjust midrace.  Teams that have been in the game for 30 years and/or have really deep pockets because of their owners or sponsorships definitely puts the small teams at a huge disadvantage.  It's basically the 9s' MO - use 90% of the race for a test 'n' tune and then go balls out the final 10 laps of the race and it definitely works to his favor. STSS and SDS both fully support this nonsense.  

[Jack Brady]

6 hours ago, iamaranger23 said:

Where the hell do you get these numbers LMAO 

 

There was 12,955 miles of cup racing this year. 2,214 of those miles were under yellow. For a total of 17.1%. And that including everything... stages, rain, wrecks etc.  Cautions were also at a 5 year high. 

 

There were a total 1,596 caution laps, which itself isnt a very meaningful number with how much track size varies. 

 

Please, tell me how you managed to get to that 40% number?

 

 

I'm bad at math, sue me.  

But the 8.1 cautions per race I got from ESPN discussing the good and bad of watching NASCAR. 

[scottnorwood]

When Adirondack ran 358 mods they would run twin 20s every night. No heat races. Draw for starting spots. Draw for invert or invert whole field depending on care count.

it was entertaining as a fan. One unexpected by product was that the first 20 lapped usually ran caution free because drivers knew they had another race to run.

Also if you have decent support divisions people don’t mind not having heat races.

[luke81]

10 hours ago, con7 said:

To each their own, but if you told me a year end  200 lapper was going to be all green flag laps this year, you couldn’t pay me to go. It would probably take 3-4 hours to complete on a race track that would be completely trash 75 laps in. 
NYS mod fans have this odd fascination with number of laps and length of track. As the sprint cars and LMs have shown many of us, less laps and shorter tracks often provide much more excitement than watching a follow the leader race on a one lane track with announcers manufacturing drama about running out of fuel or tires. 

That!  That's what I meant when I said short track racing isn't designed for these long-distance races.  What percentage of 200 lappers does anything think ran the last 50 laps on a nice, tacky multilane track?  I've not been to nearly as many as most of you, so maybe it's just my experience - but I haven't seen a single one extended distance race that had what id call a good surface late in the race.  And running them as only green laps would take longer than the indy 500.  Do i find it interesting when fuel mileage or tire strategy come into play?  Eh, sure just because its different.  But I'd rather watch 2 cars have a great on-track battle for the last 10 laps than wonder if the guy ahead by 2 seconds will run out of fuel or a tire will explode.          

[BobMiller]

How did we get back on 200 lappers again?

 

[luke81]

7 hours ago, BobMiller said:

How did we get back on 200 lappers again?

 

Because extended distance races are the only ones where caution laps count, aren't they? 

[jimbo8574]

On 1/31/2023 at 6:35 AM, ChrisAkulis said:

People who say “If you don’t like the product, don’t go”….. have you looked in the stands at most places lately?  That’s exactly what people are doing. I think what Bob is trying to accomplish here is to let track operators know maybe WHY there are so few people in the stands now.. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I thought bitching about how a track is run causes them to lose business?   Another argument that is been brought up here.  

 

[robracer]

3 hours ago, luke81 said:

Because extended distance races are the only ones where caution laps count, aren't they? 

Actually,  I believe there was some discussion on here about SDS counting caution laps in a 75 lap race last summer at Brewerton. Unless I dreamed that, then my bad lol..

[luke81]

4 minutes ago, robracer said:

Actually,  I believe there was some discussion on here about SDS counting caution laps in a 75 lap race last summer at Brewerton. Unless I dreamed that, then my bad lol..

Oh wow, I didn't know that.  Yeah that seems like a hosejob if so!  

[racermurray]

14 hours ago, luke81 said:

And running them as only green laps would take longer than the indy 500. 

The 200 lapper at SuperDirtWeek already takes longer than the indy 500 most years because of the extremely long caution periods . The reason given to me has been "we have trouble getting the cars in order after a caution"  which in my opinion is an embarrassing excuse .

I have been going to 200 lap races at Oswego since the 70's for Supers , asphalt modifieds and ASA latemodels and they didn't have this problem .

BTW ... in those days electronic scoring and transponders were not used .

[dan dan]

Let it be known that everyone has 1 or 2 laps to get where your told or we will stop scoring you. 

[racermurray]

5 hours ago, dan dan said:

Let it be known that everyone has 1 or 2 laps to get where your told or we will stop scoring you. 

Unfortunately it takes the race directors at SuperDirtWeek several laps to figure out where the cars should be.......it's not the drivers who are at fault here ....... that's my point.....why in this age of electronic scoring and transponders do the race directors look like bafoons when years ago it wasn't an issue ?

[Sicklajoie]

2 minutes ago, racermurray said:

Unfortunately it takes the race directors at SuperDirtWeek several laps to figure out where the cars should be.......it's not the drivers who are at fault here ....... that's my point.....why in this age of electronic scoring and transponders do the race directors look like bafoons when years ago it wasn't an issue .

Because pre-transponder era, all they cared about was the first 4 or 5 rows then just let everyone else fall into place.

[racermurray]

2 minutes ago, Sicklajoie said:

Because pre-transponder era, all they cared about was the first 4 or 5 rows then just let everyone else fall into place.

Not true at all , I have worked as a scorer , it was very accurate .

[racermurray]

9 hours ago, Sicklajoie said:

Because pre-transponder era, all they cared about was the first 4 or 5 rows then just let everyone else fall into place.

double post , sorry

[chas71]

9 hours ago, robracer said:

Actually,  I believe there was some discussion on here about SDS counting caution laps in a 75 lap race last summer at Brewerton. Unless I dreamed that, then my bad lol..

They  even counted cautions in the 60 lap SDS race at Canandaigua.

[BobMiller]

4 hours ago, chas71 said:

They  even counted cautions in the 60 lap SDS race at Canandaigua.

Now we are getting somewhere.